The State Wants You Either Working or Dead

[Fife]

Have you ever wondered where single-payer leads?


Euthanasia deaths becoming common in Netherlands

Euthanasia has become a common way to die in the Netherlands, accounting for 4.5 percent of deaths, according to researchers who say requests are increasing from people who aren't terminally ill.

All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.

[Kazmyr]

If you're not terminally ill, why in the hell would you wanna off yourself?

Shit, texting someone to stop being a pussy and off yourself will almost get you jail time here in 'merica.

[Ph64]

No biggie, they'll just import more rapefugees to replace them.

[TheReal_ND]

If you're not terminally ill, why in the hell would you wanna off yourself?

Shit, texting someone to stop being a pussy and off yourself will almost get you jail time here in 'merica.

Drug addiction.

LMAO @ """the state"""

lolbs are completely unreachable. At least the ones that still identify as much and run around pointing fingers at """the state""""

[BjornP]

Have you ever wondered where single-payer leads?


Euthanasia deaths becoming common in Netherlands

Euthanasia has become a common way to die in the Netherlands, accounting for 4.5 percent of deaths, according to researchers who say requests are increasing from people who aren't terminally ill.

All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.

So, if the Dutch only allowed private sector clinics, doctors and hospitals to carry out the euthanasia, you would be totally fine with that, yeah? You'd be fine with that for the US, as well, right? After all, that evil, violent State of yours should just butt out of what private citizens agree with each other on, right?

The state allowing people to ask their doctors to end their lives is not the State restricting or taking away your freedom. Surely you're not arguing in favor of the State limiting or banning the right of the private citizen to make arrangements with their own doctor to end their own life, right? That's like, violence, yo.

Seriously. Maybe try your "Whatever you subsidize, you get more of" argument here, Fife? It fits this subject a little better than your "Everything that the State does, is violence" argument.

If you're not terminally ill, why in the hell would you wanna off yourself?

Severe life-long chronic pain patients, for example. However...

The review shows that in 1990, before it was legal, 1.7 percent of deaths were from euthanasia or assisted suicide. That rose to 4.5 percent by 2015. The vast majority - 92 percent - had serious illness and the rest had health problems from old age, early-stage dementia or psychiatric problems or a combination. More than a third of those who died were over 80.

Having to live your entire life in eternal pain, provided the degree of physical pain is high enough that you cannot work, rest without medication, and your cognitive abilities (memory, concentration) are significantly reduced as a result of the pain... that's a good, moral, right, just and decent argument for why the state should allow a citizen not just to end their own life, but end it with the full understanding and help from certified medical professionsals. But the old age and mental health issues not only are a no-go because the citizen cannot be assured to truly able to consent, but being confused and frightened as senile and people with serious mental health issues may be all the time, that's just not enough. The article says that:

People must be "suffering unbearably" with no hope of relief -- but their condition does not have to be fatal.

As one of the people in the article says, being old and losing your friends, forgetting things and not being able to walk around as easily anymore, that's not "suffering unbearably". Instead of a board of doctors going: "Oh, yeah, you're right, you do seem to have lots of problems in your life and I can see why you would want to off yourself", in reply to nuke's example of a drug addict, they should spend that money on programs tailored to get him out of addiction and find some value, some pride, self-respect and ambition in and for his own life again.

[TheReal_ND]

I'm fine. My father always said suicide was the pussy way out. I'm here for my son in hot hot Texas and even if someone gave me rent it wouldn't do a thing.

[Speaker to Animals]

You can find contentment in life even when you are in pain all the time. Our society has lost its way and many people have lived shitty lives based around hedonism. They have no purpose in life other than to chase pleasures as the animals do. So when they feel discomfort from chronic pain, they figure there's nothing left to live for. It's really quite depressing.


Though, I do think we need to separate deliberately killing somebody from giving them high doses of morphine to kill unbearable pain, which can have the side effect of shortening their lives. The intent matters and the writer seems to conflate the two things, which doesn't make any sense. I suspect if you separate them, the numbers don't look so severe, else he would have separated them (since every nation will prescribe large doses of morphine to people dying in severe pain; there's nothing unusual or morally contentious about that).

[Kazmyr]

When you're going beyond terminally ill (say, 6 months or less to live), how do you determine who should be permitted to kill themselves?

But the old age and mental health issues not only are a no-go because the citizen cannot be assured to truly able to consent, but being confused and frightened as senile and people with serious mental health issues may be all the time, that's just not enough. The article says that:

People must be "suffering unbearably" with no hope of relief -- but their condition does not have to be fatal.

As one of the people in the article says, being old and losing your friends, forgetting things and not being able to walk around as easily anymore, that's not "suffering unbearably". Instead of a board of doctors going: "Oh, yeah, you're right, you do seem to have lots of problems in your life and I can see why you would want to off yourself", in reply to nuke's example of a drug addict, they should spend that money on programs tailored to get him out of addiction and find some value, some pride, self-respect and ambition in and for his own life again.

In February 2010 a citizens' initiative called Out of Free Will further demanded that all Dutch people over 70 who feel tired of life should have the right to professional help in ending it. The organization started collecting signatures in support of this proposed change in Dutch legislation. A number of prominent Dutch citizens supported the initiative, including former ministers and artists, legal scholars and physicians.

When using a qualifier like 'suffering unbearably with no hope of relief,' where are the limits on that? Does being old now qualify? From the above, it sounds like quite a few in the dutch community think so. What's next?

[BjornP]

When you're going beyond terminally ill (say, 6 months or less to live), how do you determine who should be permitted to kill themselves?

Don't know. But I imagine a combination, emphasis on combination, of medical professionals in dialogue with the patient help determine that.

When using a qualifier like 'suffering unbearably with no hope of relief,' where are the limits on that? Does being old now qualify? From the above, it sounds like quite a few in the dutch community think so. What's next?

[/quote]

Again, don't know. As I wrote, I don't agree with how they seem to lump in old age or mental illness with "unbearable suffering". And does there neccesarily have to be a "next", as in a progression toward a different line, a new extreme? Could be that this is where the Dutch draw the line, as far as we know. 4.5% out of all deaths in the Netherlands isn't excatly many.

[Ex-California]

But why should we spend massive amounts of money when someone is terminal? I'm not saying put them down, but all that's necessary is to keep them comfortable until they die

And what if the person wants to be put down? Why should the state stop them from doing that? And that's with single-payer, insurance-based, or free market healthcare systems