Europe, the not boring thread

[TheReal_ND]

Agreed that the Spanish Government is fumbling in it's effort. The British government knew how to handle it, not the Spanish: they took the gamble and accepted the referendum. And just had this extremely SJW-friendly campaign "Please Stay". And that worked: the peaceful Scots stayed peaceful.

The smart, successfull British (English) way:


If people die, that's when it could start to change. That is the moment when being a Catalan and some other start to take effect, that's when the police starts to become the enemy.

The police kicking people and being violent is one thing, people getting killed is another. Once a side has enough martyrs, people are past talking and anybody saying that we are all Spaniards will get a punch in his or her face. The fact is that I assume that the Spanish government has in the end no stomach to really crack down on the effort. They are just making their position worse.

Spain isn't there, but there is a small possibility. And if it's left to some Spanish People (or Catalonians) seems it's time to continue the Civil War:

Not sure why? Catalonia is overwhelmingly leftist. There are plenty of actual communists protesting against the "fascist," Spanish government, which does admittedly, have a fascist history.

[ssu]

Likely the days of Mariano Rajoy's administration are numbered. Because the crackdown just gave a needed boost to the independence effort.

He's no Franco.

[TheReal_ND]

Agreed that this is being handled poorly. If they crack down too hard it will give the EU a chance to step in with sanctions. Spain is already cash strapped.

[Speaker to Animals]

If Catalans are like our Californians, then maybe it would be wise to let them go. Then lock down the borders as they create a communist utopia that drives all the industries back across the border. Encourage other far leftists to migrate there early on before the collapse and then, after the collapse, militarize the border. Wait till the population that's locked in there declines enough and is demoralized enough to re-admit them, and then colonize their empty territory.

[ssu]

If Catalans are like our Californians, then maybe it would be wise to let them go. Then lock down the borders as they create a communist utopia that drives all the industries back across the border. Encourage other far leftists to migrate there early on before the collapse and then, after the collapse, militarize the border. Wait till the population that's locked in there declines enough and is demoralized enough to re-admit them, and then colonize their empty territory.

Catalans contribute nearly 20% of the Spanish GDP, whereas California contributes "just" 13,3% (and Texas 9%). Now Catalonia has just 7,5 million and the whole of Spain 46 million (that's 16%) so this is more like the Spanish "New York" that is supporting all the dirt poor "Missisippies" of Spain. So if the Spanish lock down the borders, they commit also themselves economic suicide, or just instigate themselves the worst economic depression. 25% of Exports... flushed out.



And independence seeking Catalans are not just the leftist, but also there are centrist and right wing supporters too.

What the Spanish government fucked up so badly here is to simply to declare the vote illegal. With that they threw out all those people in Catalonia that would have voted against the indepence. Hence attacking just basically all voters was a gift from Heaven to the independence faction. For example, there were firefighters trying to keep the people and police from each other and then the police start beating them too. As people know, firefighters usually are the people that "start riots".



Anyway, likely this is far worse for the EU than Brexit, because naturally the EU will support Spain. And if the Spanish government is playing it's cards so badly here...

[TheReal_ND]

What the Spanish government fucked up so badly here is to simply to declare the vote illegal

Disagree. The vote is illegal according to their court and I believe it's part of their constitution. Cracking down on it in a heavy handed manner may have been a mistake but simply stating the actual fact that it is illegal is hardly a fuck up.

Rather, the constitutional court ruled it illegal. Sounds like the final authority to me. Let them have the vote if they want but just remind them it means jack shit.

The Catalan government announced a referendum, to be held in November 2014, on the question of statehood. The referendum was to ask two questions: "Do you want Catalonia to become a State?" and (if yes) "Do you want this State to be independent?" The Spanish government referred the proposed referendum to the Spanish Constitutional Court, which ruled it unconstitutional. T

[Penner]

He said the door had been opened to a unilateral declaration of independence.

Catalan officials later said 90% of those who voted backed independence in Sunday's vote. The turnout was 42.3%.

Spain's constitutional court had declared the poll illegal and hundreds of people were injured as police used force to try to block voting.
Officers seized ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.

"With this day of hope and suffering, the citizens of Catalonia have won the right to an independent state in the form a republic," Mr Puigdemont said in a televised address flanked by other senior Catalan leaders.

"My government, in the next few days will send the results of today's vote to the Catalan parliament, where the sovereignty of our people lies, so that it can act in accordance with the law of the referendum."

He said the European Union could no longer "continue to look the other way".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41463719

[ssu]

Disagree. The vote is illegal according to their court and I believe it's part of their constitution. Cracking down on it in a heavy handed manner may have been a mistake but simply stating the actual fact that it is illegal is hardly a fuck up.

Oh it's illegal? Lol.

Actually any Scottish referendum on Independence has no legal bounding either, technically:

So, strictly speaking, any Scottish independence referendum—whether held with the agreement of Westminster or not—would be an “advisory” political instruction to Scottish and UK lawmakers to act upon.

Yet the UK government dealt with it they a true justice state would, respect the desires of it's citizens. Had the vote gone the other way, there wouldn't have been any way to wiggle out of it because of a technical legality issue. It's also illegal for any US State to secede also. But if any State truly would want to secede, the people in Washington would do a really lousy job by just hiding behind the Supreme Court.

Rather, the constitutional court ruled it illegal. Sounds like the final authority to me. Let them have the vote if they want but just remind them it means jack shit.

If a people think so about their independence, that the final authority on their independence is some fucking court and laws passed by others, they definately DO NOT deserve independence. They aren't up to it. If they have the desire and the capability yet fail because it's illegal by a court decision, those kind of maggots deserve a jackboot on their throat and to be assimilated to be some other people, who have what it takes to be an independent country.

Judges don't decide things like the independence of a country.

[C-Mag]

If Catalans are like our Californians, then maybe it would be wise to let them go. Then lock down the borders as they create a communist utopia that drives all the industries back across the border. Encourage other far leftists to migrate there early on before the collapse and then, after the collapse, militarize the border. Wait till the population that's locked in there declines enough and is demoralized enough to re-admit them, and then colonize their empty territory.

Catalan independence, Scottish Independence, Kurdish Independence, Californian Independence......... seems to be a theme.

[ssu]

Catalan independence, Scottish Independence, Kurdish Independence, Californian Independence......... seems to be a theme.

Except that there's no true genuinely popular drive for Californian Independence. The discourse is more to the line of "People moving to Canada because of Trump", more of a rhetorical gesture than reality. If I remember correctly Californians can be put to the ballot vote for many silly things. But a lot of people in Cali have come from other States and I haven't noticed in Cali this kind of feeling of being separate, an "us vs. them" attitude towards other states. Now that could change if the Federal State would send in Policemen from other states to harass elderly people who try to go to vote.

Besides, if I'd pick a state that could possibly secede, it would be Texas (if things went really bad with the Union). I think they have the correct attitude and mentality for independence far more than Californians.