Minn. officer acquitted in shooting of Philando Castile

[Speaker to Animals]

What's even more concerning to me is the fact that many police departments (and most often the media) deliberately try to obfuscate the data by recording nonwhite criminals as whites. This happens with hispanics very often.

That was a completely different post.

[Okeefenokee]

I'm sorry did we see the same video. Their was no communication problem and theirs no way of knowing if they officer had told him to keep his hands on the steering wheel he would have done it and prevented his own death. Firstly I'm a huge CCW fan, and get pissed off like everyone else when a CCW'er gets lit up by a cop for no good reason. Happens all the time, but since it's mostly white guys that get shot no one cares but other gun nuts and CCW'ers.

Who in their right mind doesn't have their registration, id, ccw, card already out by the time the cop gets to their window, especially if your carrying. He had plenty of time to deescalate the encounter before the cop was even in talking distance. The cop was professional and courteous and told him not to reach for his firearm. He never told him to get his license, or his CCW card. The man made a move for his gun, or wallet and was told more forcibly by the cop not to go for his gun, the cop even reached in the vehicle to stop him, while pulling his own firearm. At some point in all this a normal person should stop what they are doing. Seriously after all that why would someone continue to reach for their gun or wallet. Because he's continuing with his actions the cop lights him up.

Say what you want about training, but at some time people have to take responsibility for their actions. Carrying a gun means you agree to play by big boy rules and will suffer the consequences regardless of your intentions. When someone screws up it's not ok to blame the cops or their training for ones bad behavior or flat out stupidity while carrying a firearm.

I've had several similar encounters with officers while carrying. Never in my life would do something as stupid as what this guy did. I feel sorry for that officer. If you honestly think the cop was wrong in this case do yourself a favor and never carry a firearm. If I was in that officers position I may have done the same thing.

I'd just add that a better policy is put your hands on the steering wheel and wait for the cop to tell you what he needs from you.

[Okeefenokee]

It should not be easier for an LEO to kill an American Citizen than it is for a US Soldier to kill a threat in a War Zone, but it is.

Perhaps the best, most succinct line I've heard on the subject.

So are we proposing mandatory arming of every person, along with body armor, or are we proposing only fighting wars where both sides only compete in hand to hand, because I don't see a reasonable situation where two armed and trained combatants on a battlefield can be an easier contest than an armed police officer encountering a random civilian.

[brewster]

I'd just add that a better policy is put your hands on the steering wheel and wait for the cop to tell you what he needs from you.

I had an argument about this with the wife just the other day. I said we should instruct our teen to keep his hands on the wheel and wait for instructions instead of rummaging for the docs. Then to respond verbally "Ok officer, I'm going to reach into my pocket for my wallet" etc. She thought it ridiculous and more likely to raise suspicion. My kid is a white Eagle Scout, and looks it, but you never know what baggage the cop who approaches your car has, he could have an "armed and dangerous" that matches you.

This isn't a racial issue. This is a quality and training issue. If you want these kinds of things to stop, you have to be realistic about the job, its requirements, and especially the nature of crime in this country. We are currently all over the place with incompetent officers being thrown into the communities armed and dangerous, and police chiefs making up bullshit stories to increase their budgets, and local governments wanting more police to feed off the public like vampires.

We agree on this, Reading about a different one today where the cop after being acquitted threatened a woman who rear ended him in traffic with his service weapon. He had had a number of red flags previous to both incidents, but the system was unable to spit him out as a bad seed. THAT'S THE BIGGEST SINGLE PROBLEM! Cops are simply unwilling to police their own ranks. It perhaps wouldn't have prevented the Castile shooting, but would numerous others where cops were know to use excessive force.

And I readily admit most of this applies only to suburbs and small towns. The cities, such as they are, likely will require an army in the near future to keep them functioning.

Unfortunately that caveat ignores somewhere between 50 and 80% of citizens, depending on how you want to define city.

Your data in the race/crime link is tenuous, it really does not account for poverty nor the far higher likelihood of a black being arrested and convicted. But your whole apocalyptic view is outdated, all crime is down tremendously in the last 25 years, Chicago's murder rate is an outlier. But banging the crime apocalypse drum suits conservative agendas. Below is some interesting data.

[Okeefenokee]

Your data in the race/crime link is tenuous, it really does not account for poverty nor the far higher likelihood of a black being arrested and convicted.

are we gonna go through this again? it's late, and i don't feel like driving through all the white neighborhoods to look for bodies strewn across the ground that must exist if crime is equal everywhere, but the cops just aren't doing anything about it in the white neighborhoods.

[MilSpecs]

It should not be easier for an LEO to kill an American Citizen than it is for a US Soldier to kill a threat in a War Zone, but it is.

Perhaps the best, most succinct line I've heard on the subject.

So are we proposing mandatory arming of every person, along with body armor, or are we proposing only fighting wars where both sides only compete in hand to hand, because I don't see a reasonable situation where two armed and trained combatants on a battlefield can be an easier contest than an armed police officer encountering a random civilian.

That's not how I took his statement. He can clarify what he meant, should he choose to do so.

[Okeefenokee]

Perhaps the best, most succinct line I've heard on the subject.

So are we proposing mandatory arming of every person, along with body armor, or are we proposing only fighting wars where both sides only compete in hand to hand, because I don't see a reasonable situation where two armed and trained combatants on a battlefield can be an easier contest than an armed police officer encountering a random civilian.

That's not how I took his statement. He can clarify what he meant, should he choose to do so.

seems pretty simple. for it to be easier for a trained soldier to kill another trained soldier than it is for a police officer to kill a civilian, you'd need to drastically change something.

[C-Mag]

It should not be easier for an LEO to kill an American Citizen than it is for a US Soldier to kill a threat in a War Zone, but it is.

Perhaps the best, most succinct line I've heard on the subject.

So are we proposing mandatory arming of every person, along with body armor, or are we proposing only fighting wars where both sides only compete in hand to hand, because I don't see a reasonable situation where two armed and trained combatants on a battlefield can be an easier contest than an armed police officer encountering a random civilian.

My point is that the ROE in war zones are often more restrictive for US Soldiers than the rules of open firing for US Police Officers with US citizens. If Soldiers can be trained to restrain from firing, so can LEOs. It's out of balance. We need to treat our own citizens with more rights than enemy combatants. It's somewhat of a philosophical argument. Why should hollow points be legal for Police to shoot you with, but not legal in war ?

Most these shootings were likely avoidable with better training. That said, most all these shootings blend into Martin-Zimmerman territory; 2 idiots meet and someone dies, dragging the rest of us into their lives.

[Okeefenokee]

That makes some more sense.

At a policy level, ROE should be more restrictive at home than it is abroad.

That ROE abroad has become so ridiculous covers most of that debate. When you're telling soldiers they have a duty to absorb harm, lest they upset the people trying to kill them, you've left the area where these two policies can be reasonably compared.

I've had discussions where it is said that police should not pursue fleeing criminals, because a pursuit can endanger others. It's best to let criminals go rather than endanger citizens in a pursuit.

Sorry, but I don't get on that train. I lived through Brian Nichols.