2020 election

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Montegriffo
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Re: 2020 election

Post by Montegriffo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:13 pm

PartyOf5 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:34 pm
Montegriffo wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:08 am
I'm going nowhere, suck it snowflake.
Save that talk for your little boy toys.
OK, that's 3 times now in the last couple of days. You can join Clubby on the naughty step.
Bye.
For legal reasons, we are not threatening to destroy U.S. government property with our glorious medieval siege engine. But if we wanted to, we could. But we won’t. But we could.
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Montegriffo
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Re: 2020 election

Post by Montegriffo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:27 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:52 pm
pineapplemike wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:06 am
and as soon as I can afford one I'll drive an electric car.
god bless the oil and gas industry

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the major advancements made by today's electric vehicles were made possible by petrochemicals derived from oil and natural gas
That's kind of a bad argument.

You still have those plastic costs buying any alternative vehicle to the EV. It's a sunk cost in petrochemicals, but it's fixed, and it's universal (so it doesn't really make a distinction between gas and electric vehicles). Yet the EVs don't necessarily consume any oil in order to drive, whereas gas vehicles consume large quantities of gas and oil each year.

Where you might have an edge on them is if the utility power used to produce electricity that charges the EV is run on coal or natural gas. If it's nuclear power, then no, they come out ahead in terms of impact on environment.
Even large fossil fuel power stations are more efficient than little IC engines on cars though if you work out the CO2 per mile. The economies of scale ensure it.
AC , heaters and all the unnecessary gadgets don't help though. Some really basic EVs are what is needed so they can be produced cheaply in large numbers.
Porsche brought out its first all-electric car yesterday but that's not going to help the average earner.
We need the EV equivalent of this
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For legal reasons, we are not threatening to destroy U.S. government property with our glorious medieval siege engine. But if we wanted to, we could. But we won’t. But we could.
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Speaker to Animals
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Re: 2020 election

Post by Speaker to Animals » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:43 pm

Montegriffo wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:27 pm
Speaker to Animals wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:52 pm
pineapplemike wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:06 am


god bless the oil and gas industry

Image

That's kind of a bad argument.

You still have those plastic costs buying any alternative vehicle to the EV. It's a sunk cost in petrochemicals, but it's fixed, and it's universal (so it doesn't really make a distinction between gas and electric vehicles). Yet the EVs don't necessarily consume any oil in order to drive, whereas gas vehicles consume large quantities of gas and oil each year.

Where you might have an edge on them is if the utility power used to produce electricity that charges the EV is run on coal or natural gas. If it's nuclear power, then no, they come out ahead in terms of impact on environment.
Even large fossil fuel power stations are more efficient than little IC engines on cars though if you work out the CO2 per mile. The economies of scale ensure it.
AC , heaters and all the unnecessary gadgets don't help though. Some really basic EVs are what is needed so they can be produced cheaply in large numbers.
Porsche brought out its first all-electric car yesterday but that's not going to help the average earner.
We need the EV equivalent of this
Image
Nobody managed to figure it out yet. Many have tried. That would be a huge deal if you can make it work.

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Montegriffo
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Re: 2020 election

Post by Montegriffo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:51 pm

I expect it will come from somewhere like India where people just don't have the money for expensive vehicles.
For legal reasons, we are not threatening to destroy U.S. government property with our glorious medieval siege engine. But if we wanted to, we could. But we won’t. But we could.
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Speaker to Animals
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Re: 2020 election

Post by Speaker to Animals » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:59 pm

Montegriffo wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:51 pm
I expect it will come from somewhere like India where people just don't have the money for expensive vehicles.
Most likely America or Europe. It is not an economic problem but a technological problem that remains unsolved.

Tesla's attempt is to overcome the problem using an economy of scale whereby they use subsidies to inflate the market to the point where the economy for things like the batteries and electric motors are so high that prices naturally fall and subsidies are no longer needed. I think that is very risky, but somebody might as well try.

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Fife
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Re: 2020 election

Post by Fife » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:13 pm

People will always try, except when trying is made illegal.

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Montegriffo
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Re: 2020 election

Post by Montegriffo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:19 pm

South Korea maybe in conjunction with India...

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/techn ... 15821.html
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pineapplemike
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Re: 2020 election

Post by pineapplemike » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:37 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:52 pm
That's kind of a bad argument.

You still have those plastic costs buying any alternative vehicle to the EV. It's a sunk cost in petrochemicals, but it's fixed, and it's universal (so it doesn't really make a distinction between gas and electric vehicles). Yet the EVs don't necessarily consume any oil in order to drive, whereas gas vehicles consume large quantities of gas and oil each year.

Where you might have an edge on them is if the utility power used to produce electricity that charges the EV is run on coal or natural gas. If it's nuclear power, then no, they come out ahead in terms of impact on environment.
i take your point i were merely responding to the "ban oil and gas" crowd, wherever they may be

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Montegriffo
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Re: 2020 election

Post by Montegriffo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:39 pm

John Deere has a tractor ready to hit the farms by next year.
Image

Farms have the land for wind generators and solar panels too.
In the good old days, up to 1/5th of the land was used to grow fodder for the plough horses so it would probably be more efficient than that or growing biofuels.
Lots of big shed roofs so you wouldn't necessarily need to lose much land at all.
For legal reasons, we are not threatening to destroy U.S. government property with our glorious medieval siege engine. But if we wanted to, we could. But we won’t. But we could.
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brewster
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Re: 2020 election

Post by brewster » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:43 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:43 pm
Montegriffo wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:27 pm
We need the EV equivalent of this
Image
Nobody managed to figure it out yet. Many have tried. That would be a huge deal if you can make it work.
Interestingly, that seems to be happening from the other end of the scale with electric scooters becoming ubiquitous in some cities. While I personally think they're a shitshow from safety perspective because a large portion of the riders are traffic scofflaws, environmentally they're fabulous for that short ride. They're also starting to introduce Vespa style E-scooters for street pickup use.

Aren't there tiny EVs in Europe that are like the size of SmartCars? How about this glorified Chinese golf cart that can hit 45mph? IIRC, that's only 15mph under what an early Beetle could do! https://qz.com/1541380/the-cheapest-chi ... nd-europe/
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