Racism vs Classism

[katarn]

I think much of the talk that gets people labelled racist is predicated on a misunderstanding, intentional or otherwise, of the person's actual position. If I argue that brown people do X more than white people as a share of the population, but say its because these people who do X are all poor, it isn't racist. It just means that most people doing X happen to be poor and are also brown. The same principle applies to sexism and any other overused shutdown -ism term. If I say that Caroline who graduated high school is unqualified for a job, but Robert who got a Bachelor's is, it isn't sexist. There can be legitimate differences that happen to coincide with stigma.

This, to me, seems fairly inherent. Perhaps I'm stating the obvious, but I can never tell with the people I interact with...

[Martin Hash]

Most of The Left are dishonest in their debate because they rely on your sincerity to sandbag you. Here's what you need to know:
The Left, anyone in fact who is not in control, wants control. Control, almost by definition, is vested in the status quo, but also almost by definition, those without control will lose if they play by Status Quo Rules. Hence, The Left changes the rules by insisting on priorities that they own, like making "diversity," or "equality," or some other subjective, self-described issue be the main objective. You, naïve, sincere you, get led along this primrose path and are blindsided by illogic & irrationality. You MUST not be lured in by this shit. If someone starts talking "diversity," or "equality," just say "fuck that." It will completely stymie their attack.

[C-Mag]

Most of The Left are dishonest in their debate because they rely on your sincerity to sandbag you. Here's what you need to know:
The Left, anyone in fact who is not in control, wants control. Control, almost by definition, is vested in the status quo, but also almost by definition, those without control will lose if they play by Status Quo Rules. Hence, The Left changes the rules by insisting on priorities that they own, like making "diversity," or "equality," or some other subjective, self-described issue be the main objective. You, naïve, sincere you, get led along this primrose path and are blindsided by illogic & irrationality. You MUST not be lured in by this shit. If someone starts talking "diversity," or "equality," just say "fuck that." It will completely stymie their attack.

That was really helpful to my understanding of strategies that are used.

Thanks BroHash.

[BjornP]

I think much of the talk that gets people labelled racist is predicated on a misunderstanding, intentional or otherwise, of the person's actual position. If I argue that brown people do X more than white people as a share of the population, but say its because these people who do X are all poor, it isn't racist. It just means that most people doing X happen to be poor and are also brown. The same principle applies to sexism and any other overused shutdown -ism term. If I say that Caroline who graduated high school is unqualified for a job, but Robert who got a Bachelor's is, it isn't sexist. There can be legitimate differences that happen to coincide with stigma.

This, to me, seems fairly inherent. Perhaps I'm stating the obvious, but I can never tell with the people I interact with...

That poor, uneducated and (long-term) unemployed people are more often criminal seems universal. And if you simply pointed out that that's true for a certain demographic, pr. capita, more than it is for another, you'd probably be lauded as someone who pointed out an obvious injustice... but the second you try and point out that first fact, that people from low income, poorly educated and long-term unemployed households are more likely to be criminal, you're gonna get a: "Waaaait.... hol'up, waitta minute. Is he sayin'...? Oh hell naw!" *snaps fingers* ...from one end of the scale and a chastising rebuke for being racist and a series of profuse apologies from being a beiger shade of pink from the other.

Attacking you for the things that people assume you think, that they assume you must think is a great insight into what their own prejudices and assumptions about people who don't look like themselves are. They judge you based on what they would assume. Thief thinks all men steal, you know?

What can you do about it? Well.. a lie repeated often enough eventually gets accepted as truth. So, that should apply to the actual truth, as well, then. Repeat, repeat, repeat, and preferably - in this social media age - in great numbers.

[PartyOf5]

Most of The Left are dishonest in their debate because they rely on your sincerity to sandbag you. Here's what you need to know:
The Left, anyone in fact who is not in control, wants control. Control, almost by definition, is vested in the status quo, but also almost by definition, those without control will lose if they play by Status Quo Rules. Hence, The Left changes the rules by insisting on priorities that they own, like making "diversity," or "equality," or some other subjective, self-described issue be the main objective. You, naïve, sincere you, get led along this primrose path and are blindsided by illogic & irrationality. You MUST not be lured in by this shit. If someone starts talking "diversity," or "equality," just say "fuck that." It will completely stymie their attack.

This has been my experience. As some would say, "The left does does not Reason".

[C-Mag]

Most of The Left are dishonest in their debate because they rely on your sincerity to sandbag you. Here's what you need to know:
The Left, anyone in fact who is not in control, wants control. Control, almost by definition, is vested in the status quo, but also almost by definition, those without control will lose if they play by Status Quo Rules. Hence, The Left changes the rules by insisting on priorities that they own, like making "diversity," or "equality," or some other subjective, self-described issue be the main objective. You, naïve, sincere you, get led along this primrose path and are blindsided by illogic & irrationality. You MUST not be lured in by this shit. If someone starts talking "diversity," or "equality," just say "fuck that." It will completely stymie their attack.

This has been my experience. As some would say, "The left does does not Reason".

[jbird4049]

Most of The Left are dishonest in their debate because they rely on your sincerity to sandbag you. Here's what you need to know:
The Left, anyone in fact who is not in control, wants control. Control, almost by definition, is vested in the status quo, but also almost by definition, those without control will lose if they play by Status Quo Rules. Hence, The Left changes the rules by insisting on priorities that they own, like making "diversity," or "equality," or some other subjective, self-described issue be the main objective. You, naïve, sincere you, get led along this primrose path and are blindsided by illogic & irrationality. You MUST not be lured in by this shit. If someone starts talking "diversity," or "equality," just say "fuck that." It will completely stymie their attack.

This has been my experience. As some would say, "The left does does not Reason".

I've heard "Marxist", or "Communist" being shouted when such things like inequality, or poverty, or bad schools, anything to do with money. It is a nice way to also shut down the conversation. As some would say, "The Right does not Reason".

[Martin Hash]

Yes, that's how to shut down the demand for control. You WANT control so you try to make your objective THE objective, and I thwart your tactic by denying the change in direction. Common debate tactic, but obviously it needed to be pointed out.

[Penner]

Yes, that's how to shut down the demand for control. You WANT control so you try to make your objective THE objective, and I thwart your tactic by denying the change in direction. Common debate tactic, but obviously it needed to be pointed out.

But the Right also wants control and they would argue with that their side has the "reason" while the Left are a bunch of Marxists/Communists that just doesn't get it and/or just can't reason like the Right does....

[adwinistrator]

Yes, that's how to shut down the demand for control. You WANT control so you try to make your objective THE objective, and I thwart your tactic by denying the change in direction. Common debate tactic, but obviously it needed to be pointed out.

But the Right also wants control and they would argue with that their side has the "reason" while the Left are a bunch of Marxists/Communists that just doesn't get it and/or just can't reason like the Right does....

Well, obviously any political faction that is strong, but out of power, will argue a similar angle using their own language which resonates with their base. They will both used language that is veiled signals which have a different meaning to those in the in-group, then for those in the out-group...

Martin, I agree with your example on the left, not criticizing, just using your example as a template for the right:

Most of The Right are dishonest in their debate because they rely on your sincerity to sandbag you. Here's what you need to know:
The Right, anyone in fact who is not in control, wants control. Control, almost by definition, is vested in the status quo, but also almost by definition, those without control will lose if they play by Status Quo Rules. Hence, The Right changes the rules by insisting on priorities that they own, like making "state's rights, or "government spending," or some other subjective, self-described issue be the main objective. You, naïve, sincere you, get led along this primrose path and are blindsided by illogic & irrationality. You MUST not be lured in by this shit. If someone starts talking "state's rights," or "government spending," just say "fuck that." It will completely stymie their attack.

In this instance:
"state's rights" for what we want in our states. We want Jesus in the schools! Legal weed in CO, fuck that noise, send in the feds!
"government spending" for cutting the budget of what they want, not what we want. Time to cut education, EPA, welfare, food stamps, and Medicaid, but don't worry about Military, Medicare or Social Security, that's safe. Oh, here, have a tax cut too.

Now, when they get control and power, do you think their priorities are the same as what "the base" heard? I'm guessing it's pretty similar to the way the left uses their "causes", to get the vote, then do what they want.