GWOT: The More Things Change . . .

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Montegriffo
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Re: GWOT: The More Things Change . . .

Post by Montegriffo » Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:45 pm

Smitty-48 wrote:
Montegriffo wrote:
Smitty-48 wrote: Yes, and this was the rabbit hole that the British went down and then left for America to deal with, the Ottoman Turks were integral to maintaining the stable line of communication through the Near East, to the Middle East, and Far East beyond, when the Ottoman's sided with the Kaiser, and so the British sent Lawrence into Arabia to bring the Ottoman's down, that can of worms has been in play ever since, when America bought the British Empire out, America inherited the can of worms.
I'm not getting involved in this one but from an historical point wasn't the Ottoman Empire described as the sick man of Europe as far back as the 1850's? Was there really any chance they could have held the Arab world together even without the Crimean war and WWI?
Well the whole point of the Crimean War was to hold it together, expressly because it was guarding the lines of communication to the Empire, the whole point of flipping to the Russian side and infecting Britain with the sickness, was apparently; "ZOMG Belgian Neutrality!".
Ok, thanks.
Got to love them frites mit mayo though.
For legal reasons, we are not threatening to destroy U.S. government property with our glorious medieval siege engine. But if we wanted to, we could. But we won’t. But we could.
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Okeefenokee
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Re: GWOT: The More Things Change . . .

Post by Okeefenokee » Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:53 pm

The Conservative wrote:
Okeefenokee wrote:When you use women and children as human shields, you win.

Bullshit... you only win if the enemy isn't willing to pull the trigger.
It was a Trudeau joke.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.

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Fife
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Re: GWOT: The More Things Change . . .

Post by Fife » Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:58 pm

Montegriffo wrote:
Smitty-48 wrote:
Montegriffo wrote:
I'm not getting involved in this one but from an historical point wasn't the Ottoman Empire described as the sick man of Europe as far back as the 1850's? Was there really any chance they could have held the Arab world together even without the Crimean war and WWI?
Well the whole point of the Crimean War was to hold it together, expressly because it was guarding the lines of communication to the Empire, the whole point of flipping to the Russian side and infecting Britain with the sickness, was apparently; "ZOMG Belgian Neutrality!".
Ok, thanks.
Got to love them frites mit mayo though.
Oh man I had a few days in December back in 97 to spend bouncing around between weihnachtsmarkts in Belgium, Germany, Lux, and even the sticks in France.

Sausage with brotchen and Gluehwein was damn good ...... but beer and pomme frites with extra mayo was a rednecked American's dream. :drunk:

Smitty-48
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Re: GWOT: The More Things Change . . .

Post by Smitty-48 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:07 pm

Montegriffo wrote:
Smitty-48 wrote:
Montegriffo wrote:
I'm not getting involved in this one but from an historical point wasn't the Ottoman Empire described as the sick man of Europe as far back as the 1850's? Was there really any chance they could have held the Arab world together even without the Crimean war and WWI?
Well the whole point of the Crimean War was to hold it together, expressly because it was guarding the lines of communication to the Empire, the whole point of flipping to the Russian side and infecting Britain with the sickness, was apparently; "ZOMG Belgian Neutrality!".
Ok, thanks.
Got to love them frites mit mayo though.
Everything is still the Wars of British Hegemonic Succession, we are living in the expanding event horizon of that, the first war of British Hegemonic Sucession tears down the established order, the Second war of British Hegemonic succesion heralds the coming of the new age, which most describe as the Pax Americana, but really it's the Age of General Relativity, the Pax Americana, incited and undepinned, by the nuclear weapon and computers, but indeed, it all starts, in Flanders Fields, over the right of Moules-Frittes to stay Belgian.

To wit, if Britain doesn't enter the fray over Belgian Neutrality; no First World War and so no Second World War and so no Cold War and so no Pax Americana, no computers, no nuclear bombs, no ballistic missiles, no space programs, etcetera, etcetera.

We'd basically be like a hundred years ago, right now, we just wouldn't notice that it didn't all happen. Quantum mechanics would submit that such a world in fact exists, parallel to this one, where people are still riding in their horse drawn buggies to board the steam engines, in the British Raj in India, in 2017.
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adwinistrator
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Re: GWOT: The More Things Change . . .

Post by adwinistrator » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:45 am

Dan Lamothe:
Defense official just flatly disputed @ColinKahl's version of events on Yemen raid. Story updated.


Washington Post - Dan Lamothe - The White House says a deadly raid in Yemen was long planned in Washington. Not true, say officials who served Obama. (February 2 at 9:22 PM)
White House press secretary Sean Spicer said that the plan for the operation was first submitted by U.S. Central Command, which oversees military operations across the Middle East, to the Defense Department on Nov. 7, one day before the presidential election. A plan was approved by the Pentagon on Dec. 19 and turned over to the White House. Obama administration officials approved a plan for an operation during an interagency meeting Jan. 6, two weeks before President Trump’s inauguration, and decided it would be best to carry it out in the dark of a “moonless night,” Spicer said. That meant waiting until after Trump took office.

Defense Secretary Jim Mattis reviewed a memorandum on the plan Jan. 24 during his first week on the job, and Trump was briefed on it by national security adviser Michael Flynn the following day, Spicer said. Trump met with Mattis and Marine Gen. Joseph F. Dunford, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and then authorized the mission one day later.

...

Davis, asked by reporters Thursday morning whether the lunar cycle played a role in the raid, declined to answer directly, but said the Pentagon sought permission to do the raid after Trump took over.

“This was an operation that for reasons of the calendar had a date when it was most optimally conducted,” Davis said. “That date happened to fall after January 20th, and that’s when we sought the authority for and received the authority for proceeding with it.”

Another defense official said Kahl’s understanding of events is wrong.

“The raid had been planned several months and was given full consideration by the previous administration,” the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations.

...

A U.S. military official familiar with the specifics of the mission expressed frustration with the way it has been characterized. The SEALs, he said, worked through several “contingencies” in difficult circumstances and brought everyone home, including Owens after he was mortally wounded. Even with modern technology, the official added, carrying out missions such as this one is rife with uncertainties.

Spicer identified the moonless night as the reason for the raid’s timing despite some other U.S. officials recommending against doing so. They cited the operational security of potential future missions as their reason. The New York Times included the detail in its report Wednesday.

Spicer did not respond Thursday to questions about why he confirmed the lack of moonlight’s role in the operation.
Colin Kahl:
If by "plans" you mean package of authorities, they were disc but no recs made & no CONOP/raid approved by Obama
I have no doubt DoD had plans, & discussed internally, but no specific CONOP/raid briefed or approved. I was in the room. Was your source?
Dan Lamothe:
@ColinKahl Was told no raid was approved by Obama, but that it was close early in January. Not true?
Colin Kahl:
Totally false. DoD came forward w/general request for authority to do raids, but no specific CONOP briefed to/approved by Obama
Obama knew this was a "big piece of business" and wanted next team to run their own process.
And Team Trump admits Trump briefed and signed off. So he can't pass the buck. He's president & he greenlit the op w/out process
There was a Deputies Meeting in early Jan (I was there). General package of related authorities discussed. No recs made.
Nobody in the room will tell you different.
Reporting from Just Security's Luke Hartig is covering most of this pretty thoroughly:
By Thursday, the story had become much more complicated, with press reports stating that President Trump ordered the operation during a dinner meeting with Secretary Mattis, General Dunford, Mike Flynn, Jared Kushner, and Steve Bannon. The accounts raised major questions about the extent to which the President considered views from agencies other than DOD in approving the operation. And, as my colleague Peter Bergen has noted, Kushner and Bannon, who have no relevant expertise working on special operations and arguably no “need to know” about highly sensitive pre-operational discussions, were present at the meeting. White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer further commented on the meeting from the podium, stating that the operation had been reviewed by senior officials in the Obama Administration and recommended for approval prior to Trump taking office. Spicer also said that CIA Director Mike Pompeo had been present at the dinner, a detail that was absent from accounts by Bergen, the New York Times’ Eric Schmitt, and Slate’s Fred Kaplan. Spicer also noted that a Deputies Committee had taken place the day after the dinner, though he noted that this meeting was not necessary because the operation had already been approved.

Shortly after the Spicer press conference, former NSC spokesperson Ned Price and Colin Kahl, former National Security Advisor to Vice President Biden, strenuously objected to Spicer’s account, stating that the Obama national security team had not provided a recommendation on whether to execute the operation. Kahl further contended that Deputies had never even reviewed a specific concept of operations for this raid – in which DOD would have outlined how this particular operation would take place and assessed various types of risk – but rather a more general request for authorities to undertake these types of operations. Kahl says that President Obama understood this was a “big piece of business” and deferred to the next Administration to run their own process on this proposal. An anonymous Defense official, speaking to the Post’s Don Lamothe, disputed Kahl’s account, insisting that, “The raid had been planned several months and was given full consideration by the previous administration.”

Meanwhile, reporting from Reuters, sourced to anonymous officials, questioned the operational preparations for the raid and whether enough had been done to prevent the loss of U.S. and innocent Yemeni life. Accounts of civilian casualties remained unclear, with the Pentagon acknowledging that reports were probably correct, continued reporting that Anwar al-Awlaki’s daughter was among the dead, and the human rights group Reprieve (generally more extreme than other groups in its assessments) claiming that 23 civilians had been killed in the operation.
Ryan Goodman covers the dispute up to the present, with new info:
Important exchange here last night on whether Obama approved specific Yemen operation.
@DanLamothe adds 1 anonymous source w/ ambiguous quote
vs
1. @ColinKahl: specifics and on record and making important distinctions
2. DoD spokesman: "after Jan 20th...that’s when we sought the authority"
3. CNN: "Obama didn't authorize the raid because the first moonless might in Yemen came on January 28"
4. @fmkaplan story completely consistent with Kahl's account

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pineapplemike
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Re: GWOT: The More Things Change . . .

Post by pineapplemike » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:13 am

Yemen Raid Had Secret Target: Al Qaeda Leader Qassim Al-Rimi
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/yem ... d_nn_tw_ma

Military and intelligence officials told NBC News the goal of the massive operation was to capture or kill Qassim al-Rimi, considered the third most dangerous terrorist in the world and a master recruiter.

On Sunday, al-Rimi — who landed on the United States' most-wanted terrorist list after taking over al Qaeda's Yemen affiliate in 2015 — released an audio recording that military sources said is authentic.

"The fool of the White House got slapped at the beginning of his road in your lands," he said in an apparent reference to the Jan. 29 raid.

It's not clear whether al-Rimi was at the al Qaeda camp but escaped when SEAL Team 6 and United Arab Emirates commandos descended, whether he happened to be elsewhere, or whether he was even tipped off.

The White House — which had declared the raid "a successful operation by all standards" — had no comment Monday. The Pentagon also declined to comment.
Did his cell phone metadata say he was gonna be there that night?

Surprised this story isn't getting more play
Last edited by pineapplemike on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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TheReal_ND
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Re: GWOT: The More Things Change . . .

Post by TheReal_ND » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:15 am

Are you fucking kidding me? I haven't gone a day without this story popping up in 4chan.

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pineapplemike
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Re: GWOT: The More Things Change . . .

Post by pineapplemike » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:18 am

Qassim Al-Rimi being the target is news to me, maybe I missed that part, thought they were just going after intel. Seems reckless to send in SEAL team 6 for some computers, makes sense they would be going after a target

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TheReal_ND
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Re: GWOT: The More Things Change . . .

Post by TheReal_ND » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:20 am

pineapplemike wrote:Qassim Al-Rimi being the target is news to me, maybe I missed that part, thought they were just going after intel. Seems reckless to send in SEAL team 6 for some computers, makes sense they would be going after a target
Well like smitty said; we're extremely reckless with our special forces.

Smitty-48
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Re: GWOT: The More Things Change . . .

Post by Smitty-48 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:08 am

Not so much "reckless", more like; enthralled, enticed, beguiled.

The idea that you could fight and win by super ninja alone; it's seductive.
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