Trump Tower Bugged by BHO?

[DrYouth]

Anything interesting going on in this thread?

Other than Hitler accusations...

The two big parties trying to bring each other down with Investigations... there's always a faction in the Bureau that you can get to play political ball.

Any excuse to bring the other guy down...

Trump made it kind of easy... but you don't have to make it easy... they will tie you down with investigations if you give them half a chance.
Ask Clinton.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

@C
There is a lot that falls under the rubric of 'political reasons.'

The fact that he was surrounding himself with people who were on the radar for working with the Russians, and kept making statements about how cozy he was going to be with Putin, and that his finances were somewhat shrouded, but potentially tied to Russian oligarchs are all 'political reasons' for the IC to believe they were totally justified, in fact required, to look into Trump's campaign.

Or, the entire justice department, traditionally conservative, with appointed officials respected by both parties for their dedication to rule of law, is actually part of a DNC conspiracy.

Or, the rest of the American government is suspicious of the outsider, and is biased towards extra scrutiny, which is not outright corruption, but puts the outsiders partisans on the defensive.

These are all potential explanations, but I have zero reason to trust Trump's interpretation of events over anyone else's. He his, after all, a renowned exaggerator, and has outright said that exaggeration is part of his technique for #winning all the time.

PickingTrump staff to look into Russian ties is selective justice. The Podesta group works with Russia a lot. For that matter, much of the information gathered in the Steele Dossier was gathered from Russian Agents working with Steele. So why is one a Russian Agent and the other not?

I guess where you and I really differ on this is you seem to really trust these Senior Officials in Spy Agencies that spy on Americans. I don't trust these fuckers at all. We know they spied on Congress, they denied, denied, denied until they were caught and then said Sorry, really you spy on Congress and all you have to say is Sorry.

I don't trust them and I don't trust the media telling me how respected and dedicated to the rule of law these guys are. We know Comey lied to Congress when he said he didn't decide Hillary's fate until the investigation was concluded. But in the lead up to the announcement all we heard from the Corporate media is what an honest dick Comey was.

Do you really trust the FBI and the rest of these intel agencies Hanarchy ?

What makes someone a possible agent for the Russians, and what makes someone one of our guys working with the Russians for us, is spycraft above my pay grade, but it seems obvious that there is a meaningful distinction there that isn't inherently partisan.

As for trusting G-men? Nobody trusts G-men, it is sort of in the job description. However, I believe that they believe they are working in America's best interest, and I think their picture of reality is relatively free from delusion. The IC is, in my opinion, a necessary evil in modern conflict, like having a nuclear arsenal, and frankly, I would rather have duplicitous agents spying on me than hot heads causing me to be vaporized in a hot conflict, if I am to choose my state poison. Would that we lived in a world where none of that was required. If people want to roll up our intelligence apparatus to let freedom ring more brightly, I completely understand, but worry it wouldn't be ringing for too long, given the disadvantage that would put us in.

(I also worry that #memo is actually damaging civilian control over the IC by making the IC less likely to share their intel with oversight committees, now that they have broken one of the contracts that has long held between civilian oversight and the cloak and dagger portion of our government, namely, that they won't go blabbing all over town about where exactly the daggers are hidden under the cloak.)

Trump, on the other hand, is most certainly partisan, and his version of reality should be judged in that light. He is also a self-aggrandizer, and frequently uses claims that he is being persecuted to undermine his opponents. He has every right to do all of that, but it makes me skeptical of his claims.

[C-Mag]

Anything interesting going on in this thread?

Other than Hitler accusations...

The two big parties trying to bring each other down with Investigations... there's always a faction in the Bureau that you can get to play political ball.

Any excuse to bring the other guy down...

Trump made it kind of easy... but you don't have to make it easy... they will tie you down with investigations if you give them half a chance.
Ask Clinton.

The 4th Amendment being trashed and abused by the government is a Dan Carlin thing (at least it was) It was one of the things that attracted me to Dan Carlin. This is a Civil Rights Issue, calling it just about politics devalues the 4th Amendment.


It's shit like this here from 2014 that has always driven me nuts
CIA Director: We Are Not Spying on Congress http://www.govexec.com/oversight/2014/0 ... ess/80308/
CIA Director Brennan Admits He Was Lying: CIA Really Did Spy On Congress https://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/07/31 ... n-congress

Now lets take this last week. The Intelligence Community in league with the Corporate Media all came out and told us how releasing the Memo was going to reveal important secrets about spying means and methods that was going to make us less safe. The memo is released and there is nothing in there about means and methods. The Fuckers just lied to us again, the Press backs them up and moves on to the next explanation of why we should trust the Intelligence Community.

Fucking people need to wake up.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Nothing bothers the herd until they're spooked. Next financial crisis should do it (coming shortly).

[C-Mag]

What I heard
I willingly trade my Civil Liberties for Security
I don't trust the G-Men, I trust the G-Men to do what's right
The G-Men are going to be less transparent and honest with Congressional Oversight because Congress is conducting oversight and being transparent about it
I don't like Trump

[Speaker to Animals]

Nothing bothers the herd until they're spooked. Next financial crisis should do it (coming shortly).

So we've moved on from the global economic collapse immediately following the Trump election now?

[pineapplemike]

(I also worry that #memo is actually damaging civilian control over the IC by making the IC less likely to share their intel with oversight committees, now that they have broken one of the contracts that has long held between civilian oversight and the cloak and dagger portion of our government, namely, that they won't go blabbing all over town about where exactly the daggers are hidden under the cloak.)

I'm enjoying the back and forth between you and Carlus but I need to interject on this point- the IC already withholds intel from oversight committees and the contract you're referencing has long been broken. I offer this article from 2013, just after the NSA scandal broke:

Members of Congress denied access to basic information about NSA
Documents provided by two House members demonstrate how they are blocked from exercising any oversight over domestic surveillance
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ied-access

From the beginning of the NSA controversy, the agency's defenders have insisted that Congress is aware of the disclosed programs and exercises robust supervision over them. "These programs are subject to congressional oversight and congressional reauthorization and congressional debate," President Obama said the day after the first story on NSA bulk collection of phone records was published in this space. "And if there are members of Congress who feel differently, then they should speak up."

But members of Congress, including those in Obama's party, have flatly denied knowing about them. On MSNBC on Wednesday night, Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Ct) was asked by host Chris Hayes: "How much are you learning about what the government that you are charged with overseeing and holding accountable is doing from the newspaper and how much of this do you know?" The Senator's reply:

The revelations about the magnitude, the scope and scale of these surveillances, the metadata and the invasive actions surveillance of social media Web sites were indeed revelations to me."

But it is not merely that members of Congress are unaware of the very existence of these programs, let alone their capabilities. Beyond that, members who seek out basic information - including about NSA programs they are required to vote on and FISA court (FISC) rulings on the legality of those programs - find that they are unable to obtain it.

Two House members, GOP Rep. Morgan Griffith of Virginia and Democratic Rep. Alan Grayson of Florida, have provided the Guardian with numerous letters and emails documenting their persistent, and unsuccessful, efforts to learn about NSA programs and relevant FISA court rulings.

"If I can't get basic information about these programs, then I'm not able to do my job", Rep. Griffith told me.

Also worth pointing out that in addition to John Brennan lying to Americans about spying on Congress, James Clapper lied to Congress about spying on Americans.

Honestly I would be more surprised if they DIDN'T spy on Trump. The IC spied on everyone else, including foreign leaders, congress, journalists, why wouldn't they spy on the radical presidential candidate threatening to throw the other candidate in jail? Makes sense to me

[nmoore63]

I have no delusion that all the folks attack the spooks would still be doing so if the shoe was on the other foot, that being said how a good 1/4 of the country can be ok with happened with the FBI and FISA.... well it just reminds me never put too much faith in democracy.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

What I heard
I willingly trade my Civil Liberties for Security
I don't trust the G-Men, I trust the G-Men to do what's right
The G-Men are going to be less transparent and honest with Congressional Oversight because Congress is conducting oversight and being transparent about it
I don't like Trump

I said I believe that G-Men believe that they are doing what is right, I didn't claim if it was right or not. I don't agree with every choice made by the traditional boots n' bombs military either, but I believe they believe they are doing what is right, and recognize that it is important to have a military.

And G-Men aren't supposed to be transparent, and working with their civilian oversight is contingent on some of that lack of transparency. Transparency is a great populist bone to throw, but Congress can exercise oversight without it. Stick it to those nasty IC spooks if you think it will make our country better; I simply understand that there are some drawbacks to that approach.

As for the trade off between liberty and security, well, that lies deep in the heart of any discussion of what makes the shining city on the hill, and what makes the tyrannical hell. I don't claim to know the right balance, but I do know that the DNC opposition research does not, in a legal sense, automatically undermine 4th amendment protections, vis securing a warrant. That is a normative value statement about civil liberties though.

Liking Trump? Who fucking cares if I like Trump or not, the point is he brags about being a braggart and has an obvious bias towards himself. Nothing wrong with that, but his claims about reality should be judged in that light.

[C-Mag]

We mat get a legal answer as to whether the open bias and skullduggery of the FBI is legal and Ok.

Report- Mike Flynn lawyer filing a motion to dismiss all charges, based on this bias and what appears to be conspiracy by the FBI.

First we Fuck Flynn,
then we Fuck Trump -

Andrew McCabe on a Teleconference with LEOs

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02 ... ped-video/