The End of the Barnum & Bailey Circus

[heydaralon]

The fact that elephants are sentient and incredibly smart is not really up for debate. You can certainly have your own opinion, but you can't have your own alternative facts.

Elephants are smart. Deal with it. The celebrate, grieve, show joy, show anger... they can recognize different dialects and can understand human body language. They even show empathy, which is something that you are not even capable of.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/echo-an- ... ions/4489/

http://mentalfloss.com/article/55640/7- ... ibly-smart

http://www.elephantsforever.co.za/eleph ... gence.html

Maybe educate yourself before calling other people names. Name calling is for losers who can't form a coherent argument.

As I've stated before, there are many different ways to measure intelligence. Elephants can't even pass the Turing test, and just because they hang out together does not make them intelligent, as organisms as basic as leaf cutter ants are capable of as much. In fact, toolmaking is not something that elephants are even capable of, which is something that these insects can do. Certain ants farm fungus, have complex social roles, and can navigate their way back to their nest in ways we cannot fully understand. Yet you aren't getting upset every time the Orkin man comes around to spray. How well would an elephant do on a standardized test? Would it enjoy a trip to an art museum? These are questions that are quite easy to answer.

Let's play devil's advocate for a minute here and assume elephants are sentient. If that is the case then they should held to the same standards as other sentient beings when they murder and cripple innocent African hunters and circus employees? If elephants painting is your standard for their intelligence, then you have painting quite a disturbing picture of their minds. Many psychopaths like John Wayne Gacy loved painting. Saddam Hussein enjoyed Westerns. Some of the most predatory people are capable of appreciating art, and that does not detract from their crimes. If elephants are sentient, then they clearly fit this psychological mold, as they viciously attack humans whenever they get the chance, and show no remorse for the tragic loss of human life they leave in their wake. You can't have it both ways. Either elephants are senseless automatons, a resource to be harvested by human as needed, or they are four legged sociopaths who hold contempt for human life. If the second scenario is true, then elephants should be made to answer for their numerous violent crimes, as well as their cold indifference to the starving and impoverished Africans who suffer around them.

[jbird4049]

It is fairly obvious that Kath has no idea about what she is talking about. She is not even well informed enough to distinguish African elephants to Asian elephants. Yet she has erected a pulpit and decided to sermonize about how she knows whats best for animals that she is completely ignorant of. If elephants are highly sentient, than they would obviously pick performing in the circus, over scraping by in Africa. If they are not sentient, than their opinion is moot. I lean towards the latter.

This isn't hard Kath. I need you to put aside your cultural imperialism and think about what is best for the elephants. You said that they are highly emotional and social animals. If that is the case, don't you think they would realize that by donating their Ivory they are helping thousands of Africans rise about poverty and live fulfilling lives? From a utilitarian perspective, don't the needs of thousands excited circus viewing children outweigh the discomfort the elephant experiences by performing?

When it comes to humans as I would choose them over anything else, yeah.

When one is supporting death, and torture, for money, not so much support from me. There is more than enough money, and resources to help our fellow humans without making cop-outs. The arguments you are making are the same said during our near extermination of Indians, and of enslavement of Blacks. Also this libertarian support for money, forcing others to work because it's useful, this saying that you know what is best for highly social, intelligent beings, and that anyone who questions our current treatment is ignorant, or sermonizing is truly disturbing.

If one wants to support elephants, there are a large number of sanctuaries in different countries. Their conditions on arrive at such places are often very bad.

https://www.elephants.com/

https://www.elephantnaturepark.org/

http://elephantsanctuary.org/

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=elephant+sanc ... fsb&ia=web

[TheReal_ND]

Why hasn't anyone started an elephant commune? I mean just set aside some space for them in their homeland and let them do elephant stuff. Fuck it's not rocket science.

[Speaker to Animals]

Why hasn't anyone started an elephant commune? I mean just set aside some space for them in their homeland and let them do elephant stuff. Fuck it's not rocket science.

We can't let them organize into armies.

[jbird4049]

Why hasn't anyone started an elephant commune? I mean just set aside some space for them in their homeland and let them do elephant stuff. Fuck it's not rocket science.

Very large sanctuaries and parks have existed for generations, and if they were left alone they would be fine. But even when neighboring Africans want the elephants because of the money tourism leave and just because you know elephants, organized crime (think mafia with hunting with actual .50 machine guns and AKs and mass poisoning) comes in and tends to kill entire herds, and the poisoning kills any animal species so some of deaths.

It's not just about the elephants. It's the clear cutting of them faster than they can reproduce and often often of all the animals nearby. Plus the savanna with the zebras, giraffes, deer, lions able to live there is partly the result of elephants knocking down forests for food. And since many animals are grass eaters or eat grass eaters...

[TheReal_ND]

So what you're saying is that humans are violating the NAP with the pachyderms. Why don't we hire humans to protect them from other humans?

[heydaralon]

Why hasn't anyone started an elephant commune? I mean just set aside some space for them in their homeland and let them do elephant stuff. Fuck it's not rocket science.

Very large sanctuaries and parks have existed for generations, and if they were left alone they would be fine. But even when neighboring Africans want the elephants because of the money tourism leave and just because you know elephants, organized crime (think mafia with hunting with actual .50 machine guns and AKs and mass poisoning) comes in and tends to kill entire herds, and the poisoning kills any animal species so some of deaths.

It's not just about the elephants. It's the clear cutting of them faster than they can reproduce and often often of all the animals nearby. Plus the savanna with the zebras, giraffes, deer, lions able to live there is partly the result of elephants knocking down forests for food. And since many animals are grass eaters or eat grass eaters...

How is that any different from a group of hunters in the United States or Canada getting together for deer season? Is that organized crime or poaching? Oh wait, I forgot, the skin color difference. Nice dog whistling there.

[TheReal_ND]

SNAP

[jbird4049]

Why hasn't anyone started an elephant commune? I mean just set aside some space for them in their homeland and let them do elephant stuff. Fuck it's not rocket science.

Very large sanctuaries and parks have existed for generations, and if they were left alone they would be fine. But even when neighboring Africans want the elephants because of the money tourism leave and just because you know elephants, organized crime (think mafia with hunting with actual .50 machine guns and AKs and mass poisoning) comes in and tends to kill entire herds, and the poisoning kills any animal species so some of deaths.

It's not just about the elephants. It's the clear cutting of them faster than they can reproduce and often often of all the animals nearby. Plus the savanna with the zebras, giraffes, deer, lions able to live there is partly the result of elephants knocking down forests for food. And since many animals are grass eaters or eat grass eaters...

How is that any different from a group of hunters in the United States or Canada getting together for deer season? Is that organized crime or poaching? Oh wait, I forgot, the skin color difference. Nice dog whistling there.

Fabulous goalposts moving, specious reasoning, and ignoring facts. That's USDA prime grade BS.

Let's see,

Mass slaughtered of elephants, which has already almost led to extinction.

Deaths of many other animals including some endangered species.

Endangering ecosystem which depends on elephants.
Invasion of protected parks/sanctuaries.

Assaults, injuries, and deaths of rangers, herders, farmers, ranchers, workers at tourist facilities and once or twice tourists.

Destruction or threat of the livelihood of everyone above.

Violations of the wishes of the African governments and their laws and of the actual Africans who live near the parks. (Most of the gangs are not composed of locals).

And I guess that's just like killing some unendangered deer during hunting season and makes me racist.

[heydaralon]

Very large sanctuaries and parks have existed for generations, and if they were left alone they would be fine. But even when neighboring Africans want the elephants because of the money tourism leave and just because you know elephants, organized crime (think mafia with hunting with actual .50 machine guns and AKs and mass poisoning) comes in and tends to kill entire herds, and the poisoning kills any animal species so some of deaths.

It's not just about the elephants. It's the clear cutting of them faster than they can reproduce and often often of all the animals nearby. Plus the savanna with the zebras, giraffes, deer, lions able to live there is partly the result of elephants knocking down forests for food. And since many animals are grass eaters or eat grass eaters...

How is that any different from a group of hunters in the United States or Canada getting together for deer season? Is that organized crime or poaching? Oh wait, I forgot, the skin color difference. Nice dog whistling there.

Fabulous goalposts moving, specious reasoning, and ignoring facts. That's USDA prime grade BS.

Let's see,

Mass slaughtered of elephants, which has already almost led to extinction.

Deaths of many other animals including some endangered species.

Endangering ecosystem which depends on elephants.
Invasion of protected parks/sanctuaries.

Assaults, injuries, and deaths of rangers, herders, farmers, ranchers, workers at tourist facilities and once or twice tourists.

Destruction or threat of the livelihood of everyone above.

Violations of the wishes of the African governments and their laws and of the actual Africans who live near the parks. (Most of the gangs are not composed of locals).

And I guess that's just like killing some unendangered deer during hunting season and makes me racist.

As far as ways to die goes, poisoning is quite humane.The only difference between poisoning on the African Savannah and gassing by the Humane Society is that the elephants get to die outdoors peacefully, surrounded by their herd, as opposed to terrified and confused cats and dogs who are cruelly gassed alone in a claustrophobic cage. Considering that many of these Africans have lost loved ones to Elephant attacks, it is quite moving that they are able to show so much restraint by mercifully poisoning the Elephants, and not killing them with the same barbarity that Elephants have unleashed on their loved ones.