Earth matters

[Otern]

The industry shouldn't fade away. There's lots of cheap food out there, as long as it's managed the right way. But the British parliament are not the right people to manage such a thing. And neither is the European parliament. I have faith in the Scottish though.

Are we still talking about fish or is that an argument about Brexit, if the Scottish leave the UK both halves will be poorer for it.

Just fish now. And independent Scotland would not be the same Scotland as of today. If they managed to have a parliamentary democracy similar to the Scandinavian model, the agrarian parties would be able to get enough power to enact sensible environmental management, combined with business. Rather than the "green" self destructive idealism, and the urban liberal/conservative destruction of agriculture, and thereafter the global environment. Politics need to be centered on the urban/rural divide, rather than the liberal/conservative divide, for any sensible and functional environmental policy that's going to last.

[Montegriffo]

Not sure how much farming except sheep goes on in Scotland. The only reason there are so many sheep is because the English landlords back in the time of the clearances worked out they would make more money from them than tenant farmers so they booted them out and cut down the forests.

[Montegriffo]

Also the farm I live on is small with very low intensive agriculture. Without the EU subsidies from Brussels which encourage hedgerows and set aside borders around the crops he would go bust and have to sell off to one of the huge farming conglomerates who would turn it into one big field and spray the fuck out of it.
Despite reading the daily mail the farmer is pro-remain but he does have a lot of ignorance about Islam.

[Otern]

For many reasons but that is definitely one of them. I hate inhumane farming practises but occasionally eat a mouthful of muntjak because I can find no moral reason not to.

I hope I have explained why you shouldn't feel bad for eating sheep from an environmental standpoint at least. I'm not too well informed on how the animal welfare is for sheep in Britain though. But I suspect they at least have a better life than cows, pigs and especially chicken. So, stop feeling bad about eating sheep, especially if they're from Scotland.

Also, if you're ever in Norway, you can eat cow and especially sheep, with a good conscience from a both an animal welfare and an environmental standpoint, and pigs with good conscience from an animal welfare standpoint.

I don't eat chicken, because of how they're raised, and how unsustainable it is. So I understand where you're coming from. But I also grew up on a farm, and I know for sure the animals (except chicken) here in Norway have a pretty nice life, so I have no qualms about eating them.

[Montegriffo]

I do understand about sheep and we have a beautiful windflower meadow to have our juggling convention on because of them and the dogs are cute too but I still have problems understanding why an animal needs to die just so I can eat. It's bloody complex and I don't understand myself sometimes but no sheep will die for me to eat but many do for me to cook.

[Otern]

Also the farm I live on is small with very low intensive agriculture. Without the EU subsidies from Brussels which encourage hedgerows and set aside borders around the crops he would go bust and have to sell off to one of the huge farming conglomerates who would turn it into one big field and spray the fuck out of it.
Despite reading the daily mail the farmer is pro-remain but he does have a lot of ignorance about Islam.

Pretty much opposite in Norway then. An EU membership would mean all our small farms would go out of business. While the large ones would be the only ones to survive. The trend is still sadly going towards small farms going out of business though, as the conservatives, the populist right, and the neo liberals all want cheaper food, at all costs. But at least the trend is going slower than anywhere else in Europe, with the exception of Switzerland. They're pretty great at agriculture.

Sadly, I think you're right when it comes to how necessary those EU subsidies are for the British agriculture, as you've got no voice for the common farmers in parliament with that silly first past the post system. Best thing would be to make the British subsidize the agriculture, like we do here, but it looks like that's not going to happen.

[Otern]

I do understand about sheep and we have a beautiful windflower meadow to have our juggling convention on because of them and the dogs are cute too but I still have problems understanding why an animal needs to die just so I can eat. It's bloody complex and I don't understand myself sometimes but no sheep will die for me to eat but many do for me to cook.

Make some pinnekjøtt this Christmas. And you'll taste why they need to die.

[Montegriffo]

Take a look at France to help understand EU subsidies. The average farm is about 100 acres, the same as the one I'm on. Farmers in France are a huge lobby who will close the roads and ports at the drop of a hat if they feel wronged. They set lorries on fire and have a big influence on how France sees subsidies from Brussels. The govt here has only guaranteed the subsidies for 5 years IIRC and a lot of small farms will fold without them, spray or die and only grow wheat.
As it is farms have to diversify to survive, farm shops, petting zoos and camps like we have here.

[Montegriffo]

To help you understand a lot of things I feel, I first met Paul, who is the greenest man I know, 20 years ago when I brought a kitchen here to a Greenpeace music festival to serve food. He will never buy anything new eats only his own beef and the patches on his clothes have patches on them.
If you can find it somewhere there is a TV series called wartime farm which features Paul. Until a few years ago, when it's owner had to sell it , they used to thresh the wheat to get thatching straw with a steam traction engine.

[SuburbanFarmer]

I do understand about sheep and we have a beautiful windflower meadow to have our juggling convention on because of them and the dogs are cute too but I still have problems understanding why an animal needs to die just so I can eat. It's bloody complex and I don't understand myself sometimes but no sheep will die for me to eat but many do for me to cook.

Make some pinnekjøtt this Christmas. And you'll taste why they need to die.

We call them 'lamb chops'. Not as popular as pork, but they aren't really served often over here.