Sweden Capitulated

[nmoore63]

Oh, and getting back to whiny bitch boy nickmoore and his blubbering about My Lai, shouldn't have to point out what the American troop's rubric was for executing those ostensible civilians; subjective morality.

They justified their actions by saying that those people were inherently evil, in cahoots with the Viet Cong every one, and therefore honour could be put aside, to do what was "right" by a grunts perspecitive in the jungles of Indochina walking around stepping on mines which were probably being laid by those very women and children in My Lai.

They were in fact, following the GrumpyCat doctrine, except for the part about fleeing to Canada to avoid serving in Vietnam in the first place that is.

Must have touched a nerve will ole mush brains

But again with justification for why it was ok to kill unarmed women and children. Affirmative defense. As a said.

[Smitty-48]

My word is bond.

So you say, but I wouldn't bet my life on it, your ideological biases shape your code of conduct, your word is bond, until it's not, and it's not, whenever you feel like invoking subjective morality as your guiding principle rather than adherence to obligations undertaken, you would not defend with your life, that which does not comport with your subjective morality, to include the United States of America itself, if it don't vote with its feet to do as you proscribe, and you will fabricate and endless series of fallacious rubrics, to justify your wanton sedition.

As I said, MY word is bond. I never had a say in any nonsensical concept of the nation-state, or it's whims upon the world. Loyalty at gunpoint is no loyalty at all.

Say what you will about my "loyalty" to some abstract principle determined in my absence, my loyalty is to my tribe, kith and kin.

Again, loyalty and honour are not the same thing, my loyalty is to my sovereign, my honour is simply a paradigm wherein I would be reliable to adhere to an obligation which I undertook of my own free will, regardless of subjective morality, which I would have taken into account, before I undertook said obligation. I knew Canada was not the angels, when I swore an oath to defend her, but I took that under advisement, prior to.

Your "at gunpoint" rubric just being another one of your hysterical justifications for your wanton sedition, although, I do not demand any loyalty of you to the American republic, regardless of whether or not I would bet my life on your bond, two totally separate issues.

[Smitty-48]

Oh, and getting back to whiny bitch boy nickmoore and his blubbering about My Lai, shouldn't have to point out what the American troop's rubric was for executing those ostensible civilians; subjective morality.

They justified their actions by saying that those people were inherently evil, in cahoots with the Viet Cong every one, and therefore honour could be put aside, to do what was "right" by a grunts perspecitive in the jungles of Indochina walking around stepping on mines which were probably being laid by those very women and children in My Lai.

They were in fact, following the GrumpyCat doctrine, except for the part about fleeing to Canada to avoid serving in Vietnam in the first place that is.

Must have touched a nerve will ole mush brains

But again with justification for why it was ok to kill unarmed women and children. Affirmative defense. As a said.

The mush brain is you, since perhaps Strawman Smitty said it was "OK" to kill unarmed women and children, what I said was, there is no morality clause in war, so barring adherence to objective honour, anything goes by default, as, subjective morality will not hold, in the face of mass murder on behalf of the state or any other cause, you're already mass murdering people, somebody running up to you with a litigious rule book, is not going to have effects, unless you are bound by your honour, as there is no other force restraining you in the end.

[Smitty-48]

Bear in mind, repeating your little catch phrase "affirmative defense" is simply blather, I'm not relitigating My Lai, and morally, I find it to be both ambiguous, and actually an American fabricated fallacy "the bad massare" in Vietnam, as opposed to the other 2.2 million Vietnamese ostensible civilians that Americans massacred in an undeclared and quite frankly inherently unlawful military operation overall. To wit; My Lai, whoopie fuckin' do, so what?

My Lai is not the great dishonour of America in Vietnam, that's just the liberal media scapegoating the troops, the great dishonour of America in Vietnam was failing to adhere to the obligations of the Paris Peace Accords and allow free elections and reunification, because America knew that the Viet Minh would win those elections, and so America invoked subjective morality to dishonour its own doctrine of self determination by revolutionary war of independence.

[nmoore63]

I would agree that the civilians that sent the military there in the first place must bear the brunt of the dishonor.

[Smitty-48]

Again, I find the conduct of the war itself to be morally ambiguous, because again, subjective bourgeois morality could never stand in such a battlespace, in terms of dishonour, the Americans were the Redcoats, so it was dishonourable by American doctrine, but as a Redcoat, I don't get up on my high horse about it, I simply point out the facts, but Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade, 23rd (Americal) Infantry Division, need make no apologies to me, go in peace, Sykes Regulars, I ain't mad'atchas, c'est le guerre, shit happens.

The Ameican soldier has fullfilled and continues to fullfill his honourable obligations to the House of Windsor, many times over, whatever quarrel they may have had with the Communists of Indochina, is of no particular concern to we.

What, you bombed some women and children into the stone age? Yeah, so did we, but since the days when we all bombed the German women and children into the stone age together, we've been good like that, climbed the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc for we, the Viet Cong, not so much.

That's the difference between honour and morality, honourable obligations can be fullfilled, even in a morally ambiguous wasteland.

[ssu]

It occurs to me, though, that when what Smitty calls bourgeois adopt an honor code, the code is based on external obligations whereas true honor is based mostly on internal obligations.

Bourgeois are concerned with money and commerce. If somebody cannot meet their debts, they are considered dishonorable (or whatever passes for that in commercial culture), even if the reason for it is external and not a product of their own moral failings.

Honour is based on an honour code that itself is quite attached to the society at hand, and not all honor-codes naturally can be something based on war. "Honourable gentleman" didn't mean that the man had to be of military backing and of course there's universally different definitions on just how should an honourable woman behave, and how not. And of course there are professions starting from a doctor that have their "honour codes" in a loose way defining it.

I think it was you who gave the example of a SS officer being honourable and evil. I think that is a perfect example of how honour is defined by the society people live in and what is looked to be honourable. (Another great example is the Imperial Armed Forces of Japan prior to 1945. Surely very honourable Warriors by their own standards, not so by Western standards.) Why the SS is a good example here reminds me of Dan's great Ostfront series, where emphasized the ideological nature of the war, that from the start it wasn't a war were the other side was treated honorably. Of course the basic reason is ideological as the enemy were untermenschen. The philosophy of Nietsche is quite evident on the background, of the warrior being harsh and having pity being of the slave morality.

[nmoore63]

Again, I find the conduct of the war itself to be morally ambiguous, because again, subjective bourgeois morality could never stand in such a battlespace, in terms of dishonour, the Americans were the Redcoats, so it was dishonourable by American doctrine, but as a Redcoat, I don't get up on my high horse about it, I simply point out the facts, but Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade, 23rd (Americal) Infantry Division, need make no apologies to me, go in peace, Sykes Regulars, I ain't mad'atchas, c'est le guerre, shit happens.

The Ameican soldier has fullfilled and continues to fullfill his honourable obligations to the House of Windsor, many times over, whatever quarrel they may have had with the Communists of Indochina, is of no particular concern to we.

What, you bombed some women and children into the stone age? Yeah, so did we, but since the days when we all bombed the German women and children into the stone age together, we've been good like that, climbed the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc for we, the Viet Cong, not so much.

That's the difference between honour and morality, honourable obligations can be fullfilled, even in a morally ambiguous wasteland.

So what'll it be smitty?
(I don't think I have any Canadian Whiskey on hand, I just got back from Tennessee so's all I got is a Jack Daniels.)

[Smitty-48]

Again, I find the conduct of the war itself to be morally ambiguous, because again, subjective bourgeois morality could never stand in such a battlespace, in terms of dishonour, the Americans were the Redcoats, so it was dishonourable by American doctrine, but as a Redcoat, I don't get up on my high horse about it, I simply point out the facts, but Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade, 23rd (Americal) Infantry Division, need make no apologies to me, go in peace, Sykes Regulars, I ain't mad'atchas, c'est le guerre, shit happens.

The Ameican soldier has fullfilled and continues to fullfill his honourable obligations to the House of Windsor, many times over, whatever quarrel they may have had with the Communists of Indochina, is of no particular concern to we.

What, you bombed some women and children into the stone age? Yeah, so did we, but since the days when we all bombed the German women and children into the stone age together, we've been good like that, climbed the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc for we, the Viet Cong, not so much.

That's the difference between honour and morality, honourable obligations can be fullfilled, even in a morally ambiguous wasteland.

So what'll it be smitty?
(I don't think I have any Canadian Whiskey on hand, I just got back from Tennessee so's all I got is a Jack Daniels.)

My inlaws are over and I'm grilling up a whole tenderloin as steaks right now, so I'm gonna crack out the French wine at this juncture, but I got a 1.5 liter of Jameson too, so I'll be getting into that later.

[nmoore63]

Ah.
I've drank all my home brew and this stupid heat isn't helping. Football is almost here, so I plan on getting the brewery back up as soon as it starts staying below 80F.