What would America look like if it was truly the Land of the Free?

[Okeefenokee]

When they want to fuck you, they don't do it themselves, they go to the government. When they want to stop you from expanding, they don't send a goon squad to burn down your business, they buy a regulation to put you out of business.

This shouldn't be a place of disagreement.

[Speaker to Animals]

The employer is required to pay 50% of the premium. The average premium is about $516 per month for employer-sponsored health insurance in the aftermath of the Obamacare debacle. That's the half that you the employee pays. Your employer pays at least that much. Taking the smallest possible percentage (50%), employers are paying an average of $6,192 per employee per year, which is over $300k after that fifty employee threshold.

To grow a small business from 49 employees to 50 employees, you -- at minimum -- need to suddenly get an additional 300k per year in revenue just to cover the insurance premiums. That's not counting other costs, including legal and regulatory.

I think there were a few other regulations like that in addition to the Obamacare crap, but I don't know them offhand.

Oh.. and premiums are increasing faster than inflation year-after-year as a result of Obamacare as well, so that additional revenue you need is always increasing.

[brewster]

It's not hyperbole at all.

The jump in revenue required is too great for many small businesses. You need an enormous increase in revenue to pay for those overpriced policies.

It's not so much that people couldn't run a larger business with the higher profitability but that they can't grow fast enough to avoid bankruptcy in the interum. It's not like you can go from making a few hundred grand in revenue to making a few million in revenue in a year, dude.

All the more reason for a single payer system instead of putting people and companies in a cagematch. The policies are only overprice compared to ones that give you few benefits if you actually get sick. Our fucked up healthcare system is dragging us all down, don't blame the people who try and make sure everyone is covered directly, instead of indirectly by showing up indigent at the emergency room.

[Okeefenokee]

Payroll is already the largest expense.

US median income is $52k.

US median healthcare premium is $18k.

Median annual payroll at 49 employees: $52k*49 = $2,548,000

Median annual payroll at 50 employees: $(52+9)k*50 = $3,050,000

$3.05m-$2.548m=$502,000

$502,000/$2,548,000 = 19.7% increase in payroll for hiring one more employee.

Half a million more in annual payroll to hire one more person at median income.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Payroll is already the largest expense.

US median income is $52k.

US median healthcare premium is $18k.

Median annual payroll at 49 employees: $52k*49 = $2,548,000

Median annual payroll at 50 employees: $(52+9)k*50 = $3,050,000

$3.05m-$2.548m=$502,000

$502,000/$2,548,000 = 19.7% increase in payroll for hiring one more employee.

Half a million more in annual payroll to hire one more person at median income.

unless his mom is running a cyber security firm, nobody is getting paid 52k.

The increase is actually much higher, given a realistic existing payroll - IF the bump in premiums is actually that high. I suspect that this has a lot to do with region too, though.

Anyway, the problem is not that particular regulation. The problem is the insanity of handing insurance companies a mandatory monopoly, and not fixing the world's most expensive healthcare system.

[Okeefenokee]

you don't understand median figures, do you?

[SuburbanFarmer]

you don't understand median figures, do you?

I understand them quite well. But that is not representative of small business. There are very few of them paying that kind of wage, like engineering or consulting firms.

[Okeefenokee]

you don't understand median figures, do you?

I understand them quite well. But that is not representative of small business. There are very few of them paying that kind of wage, like engineering or consulting firms.

then, no. you don't understand.

small businesses are the largest employers in the nation. by definition, as a majority, they are closer to the median than any other.

you bringing up higher paying fields shows that you don't understand how median figures work. the entire point of using median figures is that they work better than any other to.... you know what, fuck it. there isn't a chance in hell you'll accept that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[SuburbanFarmer]

you don't understand median figures, do you?

I understand them quite well. But that is not representative of small business. There are very few of them paying that kind of wage, like engineering or consulting firms.

then, no. you don't understand.

small businesses are the largest employers in the nation. by definition, as a majority, they are closer to the median than any other.

you bringing up higher paying fields shows that you don't understand how median figures work. the entire point of using median figures is that they work better than any other to.... you know what, fuck it. there isn't a chance in hell you'll accept that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

You're so gung-ho, when you think you've got me on something. It's cute watching you smash your face into the wall.

Small business is defined as 500 or fewer employees in the US. http://www.yourdictionary.com/small-business
Not 50.

So yes, you're right that those companies are offering higher wages, and closely match the median payroll.

However, those "small businesses" are 99% of all employers in the country. We weren't discussing 99% of them, we were talking about companies under 50 employees.

Those companies do NOT pay anything like 50k/year, except to the owner - with the exception of engineering or consulting firms.

The funny part is that this actually makes your point much stronger, as the jump in payroll would probably be closer to 50% for most businesses.

[Okeefenokee]

me·di·an
ˈmēdēən/Submit
adjective
1.
denoting or relating to a value or quantity lying at the midpoint of a frequency distribution of observed values or quantities, such that there is an equal probability of falling above or below it.

However, those "small businesses" are 99% of all employers in the country.

If you can't see the fucking idiocy in your argument, no one can help you.