Europe, Boring Until it's Not

[SuburbanFarmer]

Really we should just close the border to non-commercial and non-governmental traffic. Let Mexico deal with them.

Do daily commuters count as 'commercial traffic'? Because there are thousands of those...

[Speaker to Animals]

Really we should just close the border to non-commercial and non-governmental traffic. Let Mexico deal with them.

Do daily commuters count as 'commercial traffic'? Because there are thousands of those...

We could probably make exceptions for commuters. For immigration in general.. shut it down.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Really we should just close the border to non-commercial and non-governmental traffic. Let Mexico deal with them.

Do daily commuters count as 'commercial traffic'? Because there are thousands of those...

We could probably make exceptions for commuters. For immigration in general.. shut it down.

Well... what if one of them loses their passport during the work day?

[Speaker to Animals]

Do daily commuters count as 'commercial traffic'? Because there are thousands of those...

We could probably make exceptions for commuters. For immigration in general.. shut it down.

Well... what if one of them loses their passport during the work day?

Muy grande mal dia.

[heydaralon]

Why is it that any time a far right politician in Austria, France, or wherever seems poised to gain power, the EU technocrats lift the curtain a bit and reveal their contempt for the electorate. They will openly say that they will not let this person win and that free speech will be restricted. Don't pretend this hasn't happened multiple times. This isn't a fluke either. Marine Le Pen got 34% in the runoff French election. The AfD got 13% in 2017. This is to say nothing of Poland and Hungary's political shift. Why do you suppose this is happening, and why is it happening now?

You ought to seperate the some things here. There are definitely politicians and officials, influential ones, within the EU who want to centralize and federalize the EU. The Spinelli Group is probably the most influential, along with its founder, Guy Verhofstadt (a Belgian). When it comes to free speech, that's not an issue or motivation for them. The federalists argue for a more centralized system because they belong either to the idealist faction who thinks only by joining together as one, European super-state can wars (in Europe) be stopped forever. And then you have economic pragmatists, they're probably the largest group and the group with most economic backing. They just want the EU to centralize and federalize because it leads to a huge 500+ million market of potential consumers, with a central commission in Brussels being able to demand that a member country open up their market to a product their national laboratories migh have deemed dangerous. Money talks everywhere.

As for freedom of speech: The most recent case when it comes to freedom of speech restrictions was the "meme law". It was put forth by the EU Commission to be voted on by the EU parliament - it didn't pass, fortunately. But that law wasn't motivated by, or even publicly argued as, a law aimed against politically incorrect memes or whatever. It was a piece of legislation funded by copyright holders in the photo, art, sound and video industries. They were the ones lobbying the law. The argument was that all those images used in memes, gifs, youtube videos using clips, etc. were using their IP without permission or buying the privilege to do so. And the thing all these major (and minor) companies love about the EU is that they only have to target their lobbying one place, in one building and they suddenly get access to a half a billion consumers via an unelected EU Commission. Saves money for them, and gives them control over a market of half a billion people. It's not "Marxists" that are threatening liberty in Europe. In the EU, if anything it's the Marxist parties that are most vocal Exiters.

The EU isn't the Spinelli Group however, or the federalists. When you, or anyone else, mistake the federalists for "the EU", you're effectively handing over ownership of the project to them. Which is what they want, what they argue. Poland and Hungary's governments aren't anti-EU, they're not arguing for an exit from the EU. They want the EU to return to a more decentralized, less interfering, more pragmatic, assocation of independent countries. If one keeps talking about "The EU", keeps associating it with the wishes and dreams of the federalists and those arguing for more centralization, you're doing countries like Poland a huge disservice. And Denmark, too, since we've also long been on the restrict immigration and no one but two minor parties advocate for a United States of Europe.

I do not want a return to facism in Europe btw. Unlike your governments and many of your pitiful voters, I actually enjoy liberty. The right to bear arms, the right to free speech, the right to a real trial etc, are all values that are important to me. But your policies of valuing muslim rape gangs over taxpayers safety (a single European taxpayer should have exponentially more value than the entire suffering of the Levant and horn of Africa btw because they are citzens, and citizens are the only people the EU should care about). The mayor of Cologne, a self proclaimed feminist, threw her own ideology and supporters under the bus when the rape attacks happened. She hates white men, but she ignored the reality of the situation and real rape culture that is endemic in the entire Umma. France did the same. Do you not see a connection between letting in filthy rapist animals, and how this will cause citizens to reject the power system that allows this to happen?

Again, Germany isn't the EU, doesn't lead it, Germany doesn't dictate the migration policy of the other EU member states. There is no "policy of valuing muslim rape gangs over taxpayer safety" here in Denmark.

I am being hyperbolic, but so is your government. You guys have a serious probelm with youth unemployment in the very countries that are the places where all these muslims mob rush in. Gibraltar saw revolting violent muslim molesting mobs stampede the gates. These countries were having serious anarchist riots over the dim career prospects for youth not long ago. We are talking over a third of youth in Spain, Portugal, and Greece being unemployed. Italy has long resented the huge burden their populace, asylum centers, and navy bear from picking up these coyote rape rafts in the Mediterranean and has also expressed open contempt for the EU. Greece is a filthy disgusting place already with rampant laziness and at one time 35% unemployment. They had Golden dawn and Syriza, neo nazis and commies gaining support, and you morons think it is a wise idea to allow millions of muslims from Turkey and Libya to enter Europe through this powder keg of a country? How dumb are you guys? If 1 in 3 people my age didn't have a job, and all of a sudden millions of criminals were in my already hopeless country driving down govt budgets, screwing with the labor markets and generally prompting xenophobia due to their boorish behavior, how will that react with a place where extremist political ideologies are seriously being considered? Do you know anything about Europe in the 1930's? That is a recipe for destruction. The fact that the EU doesn't see the correlation between their own stupid open borders globalist shit and the voters increasingly rejecting them through these anti EU candidates shows me that your whole Euro project is doomed, and that your leaders are far stupider than Hellen Keller (who was an actual retard).

My government has very little problem with youth unemployment. Spain, Greece, Portugal, though? Sure. And given the economic realities in not just those countries, but also for the sake of protecting the general welfare of all other European countries, even the European left endorse restrictions on migration and accepting refugees. The idea that we're heading for a resurgence of Fascism, that Muslim immigrants in Europe are the new Jews... ? That's a talking point some of the politically correct, open borders elite types used in the 90's. Similar arguments are used today, where people who want to restrict immigration and slandered by being called "nationalists". I don't care about the hyperbole; it's simply wrong to suggest that we're heading the way of 1930's Europe.

Keep this shit up. If Europe falls apart, Trump will probably win 3 terms, and he can keep making our own country better. Your continent will be a warning to American voters on what not to do, and to be honest, it will be for the best if the EU goes the way of Austro-Hungary and the Ottomans. I actually care about human dignity for all of mankind and I respect everyone, and once the EUSSR falls apart, it will replace the decay and rapist gobalist fatalism that has grown on your Caliphate continent like Stage 4 anal cancer. I would rather live in a full sceptic tank underneath a Port au Prince AIDS clinic than live anywhere in Europe, because at least there is a limit to how disgusting that lifestyle will be. You guys keep setting the bar lower and lower, and every time I think that you've reached the floor it's some oak island type shit and a mysterious trap door drops you down another layer to cucked Euro-debauchery. You won't even have electricity by the time your next generation is college aged, because your entire govt budget will go towards building mosques venerating the acid attack martyrs, with Merkel cutting the ribbon. I hope one day you folks will see the light and return to the values of the West that allowed you to even get a society Muslims wanted to loot.

I think you should visit and stay for maybe a week, in any European city. I think you'd be surprised to see how few rape gangs prowl by, the absence of Sharia police patrols in the streets. I agree there are problems here, but your mental image of the scope, the extent, the scale... getting worried about Europe "falling", sharia states, etc.... it's like if I pretended you had reason to fear getting conquered by Native Americans. Makes for high drama, but it isn't realistic.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistic ... _in_the_EU

In terms of warning of immigration, I think your country became a warning of what not to do in the 16th century, tbh. Denmark has had a more restrictive immigration policy than the US for far longer than anyone in Europe ever heard the name Trump.

Good response. However, I have to point out that Euroscepticism is not solely confined to the left. Your point about the half bill consumer market is great for business is well taken. That's why they did it. I am generally a pro business guy, but I am also a strong believer in national sovereignty. When a nation's entire autonomy and individual civil liberties are nullified because it will be great for a business, that is a problem imo. Likewise, allowing entire economies of various countries to be ravaged in order to keep the Euro in place has created many problems. I have heard it compared to the interwar Gold Standard, which may or may be true, but its kind of a funny point.

Its very ironic to me. The EU wanted to make it impossible for war to break out in Europe again. Yet in former Yugoslavia, the sectarian conflict and massacres that followed were not prevented, or even so slightly stopped by the EU. Their response was pitiful.

Likewise, they always talk scary that xenophobia and extremist ideology will make a strong resurgence if the EU breaks apart. The rise and popularity of xenophobia and extremism is already taking place in much of Europe and among pluralities of its voters, and all of this has been caused and exacerbated by the EU through immigration, austerity, and binding treaties. The Netherlands, Greece, Italy, Poland, Austria, Hungary, and Germany have all dealt with this, and the elites (the ones that matter and who have a vision for unity) of the EU cannot make their citizens fully reject the arguments these "extremist" politicians bring up. The same way that Trump was fueled by SJWism and semen swallowing MSM ideology here in the states, the EU ideology of unity, peace, and prosperity has actually fanned the flames of division, economic uncertainty, and extremism. The EU is the disease not the cure. I also take your point that many of these extremist politicians do not want to leave the EU, they want to reform it. At what point will they and their voters give up when they attempt to gain more autonomy, but cannot? What then will they do? What actions will they take? This isn't purely hypothetical either.

I'm not against regional alliances or trading blocs between countries with similar living standards. But to pretend that Greece and Denmark have anything in common is ludicrous. To pretend that linking them together and creating a similar currency won't have drastic and unforseen consequences for the entire continent is like playing with fire. The 1930's may not come back, but things can and will get worse. The predecessors to the EU were quite modest in their ambitions, and I can't fault them. But the current project is not viable longterm.

You could come visit in Florida too. Our headlines make it sound worse than it is. I'm sure you would find that the tourist areas are quite safe, and there are nice hotels, like every place on Earth. But there are parts of Florida that are ethnic ghettos filled with crime and murder. There are some areas in my state where English is hardly spoken. And they are growing. You might not have to interact with immigrants much where you live, but they will bite your country in the ass in a major way. Take an Americans word for it.

Better to be a eurosceptic than to live in a euroseptic, a euro septic tank that is

[The Conservative]

Really we should just close the border to non-commercial and non-governmental traffic. Let Mexico deal with them.

If I could up-vote that I would..

I say we should allow people to come over to visit as well, but I mean isn’t that what visas are for?

[Montegriffo]

I say we should allow people to come over to visit as well, but I mean isn’t that what visas are for?

Most of your undocumented migrants are there because they have overstayed their visas not because they rushed the border in invader caravans.


Now I understand why StA hates you posting here.

[The Conservative]

I say we should allow people to come over to visit as well, but I mean isn’t that what visas are for?

Most of your undocumented migrants are there because they have overstayed their visas not because they rushed the border in invader caravans.


Now I understand why StA hates you posting here.

And witg The majority in CA, FL, IL, NY etc do you see a pattern here? The places that have cried the most about Trump’s immigration reform and the wall...

Remove them from the US, and the loud cry ( and Democrats strongholds) will become a whimper.

The percentage is actually 42% (depending on the numbers you believe) and falling. Trump’s ICE already is targeting 600k overstayers.

But depending on who you believe, that 14 million number may be a little low.

[BjornP]

Good response. However, I have to point out that Euroscepticism is not solely confined to the left. Your point about the half bill consumer market is great for business is well taken. That's why they did it. I am generally a pro business guy, but I am also a strong believer in national sovereignty. When a nation's entire autonomy and individual civil liberties are nullified because it will be great for a business, that is a problem imo. Likewise, allowing entire economies of various countries to be ravaged in order to keep the Euro in place has created many problems. I have heard it compared to the interwar Gold Standard, which may or may be true, but its kind of a funny point.

Its very ironic to me. The EU wanted to make it impossible for war to break out in Europe again. Yet in former Yugoslavia, the sectarian conflict and massacres that followed were not prevented, or even so slightly stopped by the EU. Their response was pitiful.

Likewise, they always talk scary that xenophobia and extremist ideology will make a strong resurgence if the EU breaks apart. The rise and popularity of xenophobia and extremism is already taking place in much of Europe and among pluralities of its voters, and all of this has been caused and exacerbated by the EU through immigration, austerity, and binding treaties. The Netherlands, Greece, Italy, Poland, Austria, Hungary, and Germany have all dealt with this, and the elites (the ones that matter and who have a vision for unity) of the EU cannot make their citizens fully reject the arguments these "extremist" politicians bring up. The same way that Trump was fueled by SJWism and semen swallowing MSM ideology here in the states, the EU ideology of unity, peace, and prosperity has actually fanned the flames of division, economic uncertainty, and extremism. The EU is the disease not the cure. I also take your point that many of these extremist politicians do not want to leave the EU, they want to reform it. At what point will they and their voters give up when they attempt to gain more autonomy, but cannot? What then will they do? What actions will they take? This isn't purely hypothetical either.

I'm not against regional alliances or trading blocs between countries with similar living standards. But to pretend that Greece and Denmark have anything in common is ludicrous. To pretend that linking them together and creating a similar currency won't have drastic and unforseen consequences for the entire continent is like playing with fire. The 1930's may not come back, but things can and will get worse. The predecessors to the EU were quite modest in their ambitions, and I can't fault them. But the current project is not viable longterm.

You could come visit in Florida too. Our headlines make it sound worse than it is. I'm sure you would find that the tourist areas are quite safe, and there are nice hotels, like every place on Earth. But there are parts of Florida that are ethnic ghettos filled with crime and murder. There are some areas in my state where English is hardly spoken. And they are growing. You might not have to interact with immigrants much where you live, but they will bite your country in the ass in a major way. Take an Americans word for it.

Better to be a eurosceptic than to live in a euroseptic, a euro septic tank that is

Oh, no doubt that it is the euroskeptics on the right who have the most political power in EU politics and the greater visibility. Leftist euroskeptics range from European Green parties represented in elected parliaments on the moderate side, and old school Communists and antifa anarchists smashing things in the streets on the radical side. The right-wing euroskeptics range from soft, reformist euroskeptic National Liberals on the moderate side to "Exiters" who can be anything from moderate, classical liberal Conservatives who just want a return to a time of more national sovereignty to Golden Dawn-type neo-Nazis on the radical side.

And oh yeah, I absolutely agree with you on the bullshit EU myth of "EU prevents (will prevent) war!". I hated the EU transparently political Nobel prize. If any European organization should have gotten that, it should have been the Council of Europe (not to be confused with the European Council, which is an EU institution). CoE encompasses almost all countries with territory in the European part of Eurasia. Russia and Turkey is a member, for example. NATO also prevented war, but I don't think the Nobel committe don't like the idea that a military presence can deter war which in turn leads to peace. The federalists love to use the "member states need to integrate (give up more sovereignty) more and more into the EU... or else there will be war in Europe, again. It's funny how often they forget how much war there was before ethnic nationalism emerged as an idea. The federalists have tried for years to change the meaning of "European" to someone in favor of a federalized United States of Europe. Macron, for example, is referred to as a "Super-European" by some media. They say they want to cure Europe of nationalism... but they keep using nationalist language themselves - they just want to create a new, pan-European "national" identity, with EU as the nation state.

At what point will they and their voters give up when they attempt to gain more autonomy, but cannot? What then will they do? What actions will they take?

The motivations for staying in, and the nature of the policies within, the EU are not neccesarily uniform. There was a major survey done among EU citizens a few years ago, which for example pointed out that a majority of Polish voters actually support a more federated EU. That's not the policy of the current Polish government. Generally speaking, across the EU, voters are being persuaded that there is and can be only one direction the EU should move in, that that is the only way toward prosperity, peace and stability. The Nordic countries's voters generally stand out when it comes to the desired future of the EU:

http://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/pub ... ubl_en.pdf

(Note it's a large file. See page 126 onwards for European views on the future and goal of the EU).

As for the rest of your post, the observation that one cannot and shouldn't pretend that Greeks have something in common with Denmark: I absolutely agree with that. When the European Economic Community was turned into a political, rather than the economic union it had originally been via the Maastrict Treaty in the early 90's, there were already parties warning that things were moving in a wrong direction. And at the time, Denmark was only one of the few countries that actually voted to join that damned treaty- or rather we voted not to. Then the new EU negotiated an opt-out agreement on certain key issues where we refused to hand over sovereignty, put that to the vote and that agreement passed by 56% of voters. But only few on the fringes were talking about encroaching centralization, federalization and greater loss of sovereignty at the time. Voters heard "more jobs", "cheaper travel", they sold it to us by appealing to our trade sense.

And thanks for the "euroseptic" word.

[Speaker to Animals]

The course they are now.. I would argue the EU you have at the moment, while perhaps preventing a war within Europe, is all but guaranteeing you end up with war against external foes.

Europe is a great economic prize and major powers are going to want to dominate that economic zone as long as Europe does fuck all about their own defenses. The United States cannot continue to pay for all this shit, and this means Europeans are going to have to face some hard facts about just why their social welfare models were so nice (hint: they weren't paying that much for defense). That, combined with God knows how many dindus your government imported into the welfare system, is going to create a very tough transition for Europeans.

Brussels likes to play-act as the American federal government, but they really don't have the power to actually do that in practicality. They need an army. They need probably half the tax revenue generated in Europe.

If you are going to do this -- and I am telling you right now that federalization is a fucking nightmare and not worth it -- then you need a true federal government that takes all sovereignty away from the member states, with an elected government. But then consider what that entails. How do you elect something akin to an American president in Europe?? You people don't even speak the same language. You have no common heritage. America is really several nations, but the distinctions between those three to four nations are blurry because we all came out of England. We are separate nations because, since the times of the English Civil Wars, our people began to drift apart from a common origin. Europe is the opposite of that. You are completely separate ethnicities trying to merge together into a single people. I do not think it feasible for you to have a common leader in any form of a democratic system.

And that's the real problem with globalism as it pertains to democracies of all types. A democracy in a multi-ethnic state is always a trainwreck because people naturally just break down into identity groups. There really is no way out of that trap. If you are going to do a mult-ethnic state, then you need a non-democratic government.

Which is why Brussels operates the way it does, I suppose.