The Enlightenment - roll it back or forward?

[SuburbanFarmer]

So I think most in this thread agree that our modern age has lost touch with spiritual values...
That much of what is celebrated is in fact degenerate behaviour.
Greed, Lust, Selfishness, Materialism, Egotism... all of these have taken centre stage
There seems no agreed upon spiritual path and many dismiss spirituality altogether.
What passes for spirituality is largely fad based and flavour of the month.

Wilber makes a serious study of this and finds consensus among the spiritual paths of the wisdom traditions... he has some pretty interesting observations to make about spiritual development and how this has come off the rails in our postmodern age.

All symptoms of corporatism, and relentless brainwashing. There is no more perfect consumer than someone lonely, depressed, greedy, and horny.

[DrYouth]

All symptoms of corporatism, and relentless brainwashing. There is no more perfect consumer than someone lonely, depressed, greedy, and horny.

Wilber argues that it is related to the elevation of reason to high ascendance over moral and spiritual development.
The differentiation of reason from the other two realms of development was critical and allowed the technological progress of modernity to be accomplished but at the expense of the realms of moral and spiritual progress...
Seeing all aspects of life as objective and measurable has hollowed out the landscape... leaving everything superficial and skin deep.
If it ain't measurable it doesn't exist. Everything is relative, everyone is equal... There is no soul, there is no spirit.

This is the postmodern world.... no wonder so many are sick of it.

Wilber argues that we don't need to reject reason and it's accomplishments but we need to reintegrate the moral and spiritual realms...
No easy task.

[SuburbanFarmer]

No easy solution to that, without either a religious coup (very bad), or a collapse of corporatism (very good).

[Speaker to Animals]

All symptoms of corporatism, and relentless brainwashing. There is no more perfect consumer than someone lonely, depressed, greedy, and horny.

Wilber argues that it is related to the elevation of reason to high ascendance over moral and spiritual development.
The differentiation of reason from the other two realms of development was critical and allowed the technological progress of modernity to be accomplished but at the expense of the realms of moral and spiritual progress...
Seeing all aspects of life as objective and measurable has hollowed out the landscape... leaving everything superficial and skin deep.
If it ain't measurable it doesn't exist. Everything is relative, everyone is equal... There is no soul, there is no spirit.

This is the postmodern world.... no wonder so many are sick of it.

Wilber argues that we don't need to reject reason and it's accomplishments but we need to reintegrate the moral and spiritual realms...
No easy task.

Well, that's certainly the Enlightenment marketing, but not the reality. Reason took a turn for the nearly non-existent as a result of this thing.

Like feminism, it's mostly the opposite of how proponents define it.

The neo-liberalism narrative is ass backwards.

[Okeefenokee]

So I think most in this thread agree that our modern age has lost touch with spiritual values...
That much of what is celebrated is in fact degenerate behaviour.
Greed, Lust, Selfishness, Materialism, Egotism... all of these have taken centre stage
There seems no agreed upon spiritual path and many dismiss spirituality altogether.
What passes for spirituality is largely fad based and flavour of the month.

Wilber makes a serious study of this and finds consensus among the spiritual paths of the wisdom traditions... he has some pretty interesting observations to make about spiritual development and how this has come off the rails in our postmodern age.

But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power.

[Hwen Hoshino]

It doesn't really make sense to try to compare past to present in a competition of which was "better", or which was "worse"...
Obviously life spans have lengthened and rates of violence have decreased...
But rates of loneliness, depression and mental health disturbance have likely increased.

So would you rather live a short and violent life or a long and depressing one...

It's a suckers choice.

There is no going backwards in time at any rate.... recapturing the nostalgic past is a fools quest...

But perhaps the future could be less lonely and depressing....

People did not have the time to be depressed because thye had to work the fields 24/7. I take my chances now.

[DrYouth]

People did not have the time to be depressed because thye had to work the fields 24/7. I take my chances now.

I agree...
I believe that we are better off in a postmodern world...
There are greater opportunities, there are broader horizons...

But there is also a far wider disparity of vision between those stuck at the lowest levels of moral emotional development and those at the highest...
And there is almost no recognition of this disparity, everyone is equal remember?

So there is nothing to be done, nothing to aspire to (other than materialism).... only massive frustration.... little community, and precious little to sustain soul and spirit.

Going backwards to the common ground of the past where we were in greater harmony with one another but lived short and violent lives is not my choice of path.... but the harmony side of things is appealing....

[Zlaxer]

People did not have the time to be depressed because thye had to work the fields 24/7. I take my chances now.

...there is also a far wider disparity of vision between those stuck at the lowest levels of moral emotional development and those at the highest...
And there is almost no recognition of this disparity, everyone is equal remember?

You're position, IMHO, ignores significant cultural differences - I will not recognize certain cultures as my equal, e.g., Arab culture, e.g., beating women, forcing them to wear repressive clothing, discounting and/or prohibiting their testimony in court, etc....Does that place me at the "lowest level or moral emotional development?"

[DrYouth]

You're position, IMHO, ignores significant cultural differences - I will not recognize certain cultures as my equal, e.g., Arab culture, e.g., beating women, forcing them to wear repressive clothing, discounting and/or prohibiting their testimony in court, etc....Does that place me at the "lowest level or moral emotional development?"

Not at all...
The point Wilber makes is that a blanket statement that all cultures are equal without any analysis of that culture is inherently blind and wilfully ignorant...
"Arab culture" covers a broad range... but we know that large swaths of the Arab world operate as you describe.
Not addressing this is wilful ignorance.... pretending it is not so is not wise or moral.

[Speaker to Animals]

Let's just have the Soddom and Gomorrah without the forced anal sex and maybe God won't punish us this time around.