"If minimum wage goes up, the price of everything goes up."

[TheReal_ND]

Well considering that Walmart pays less than ten and they employ millions(?) more than mom and pop you just melted the economy. Good job

Does the economy melt because Walmart fires everyone or because Walmart shuts down? If Walmart shut down I would say wait for the small businesses to come in and fill the vacuum.

If Walmart fires everyone and they automate everything I'd argue they were about to do that anyway and we should be focusing on a minimum income, not a minimum wage.

Hey I mean if you want to burn it all down to see what happens that's fine with me too. Just watch out for all those proles you put out of work and hope THE GOVERNMENT WILL FIX IT (pro tip, they won't)

[ssu]

I think it should be obvious to everybody that the more there are people that can have a middle-class income, the more there is demand, which is needed for there to be economic growth. The most idiotic thing especially for some country like the US is to look at it from a general viewpoint of US labour being "too expensive" compared to some China. Fight that "expensiveness" by not raising wages or even lowering them, and you just have a negative effect on aggregate demand. And that demand actually is important for the World economy.

The very rich are basically savers as the consume far less than what they profit. In a healthy economy there is a role for them too, that should be noted also, but if you don't have those who could consume, the economy won't work. Where the goofy idea of trickle-down economics comes I don't know.

Hence a large wealthy middle class is the objective. How to get there is of course a political decision. Minimum wage, wealth transfers, etc. are one way, but there you ought to take into account of what are going to be the consequences in a World of ours were capital can move freely and quickly.

[JohnDonne]

Well considering that Walmart pays less than ten and they employ millions(?) more than mom and pop you just melted the economy. Good job

Does the economy melt because Walmart fires everyone or because Walmart shuts down? If Walmart shut down I would say wait for the small businesses to come in and fill the vacuum.

If Walmart fires everyone and they automate everything I'd argue they were about to do that anyway and we should be focusing on a minimum income, not a minimum wage.

Even if I was convinced that automation is an oncoming doom, this Walmartization of our economy has been building for over forty years. Also I doubt even more that the CEO should make 500 times more than the clerk. That's not hyperbole BTW.

I'm surprised you are not convinced that automation will result in an employment crisis. What makes you think otherwise?

[TheReal_ND]

It wouldn't have but you fuckers thought it was racist to not let the whole world live here so instead of our demographic decline working to our advantage we now have a huge population of foreigners that want us dead and now they have less prospects for work. Good job liberals. You really showed the world how tolerant you are.

[ssu]

I'm surprised you are not convinced that automation will result in an employment crisis. What makes you think otherwise?

Just remember that in economics there is a thing called supply and demand.

If everybody, or large number of people would be unemployed, who the fuck would need an army of robots? If vast amounts of people are laid off, they likely won't consume as before, and likely the economy is worse off. If the economy is worse off, who in hell will make investements? You see, you need a demand somewhere (not perhaps in your country, but somewhere) in order for making investments in the first Place.

Because the idea of machines taking over people's jobs was something quite real during the industrial revolution in the 19th Century? So what happened to all those fears that the luddites were talking about? They didn't emerge.

Look how many people in the US (or basically everywhere) were in farming and the agricultural sector in the end of the 19th Century. Look how many are there now. Yet there aren't hoardes of hungry unemployed people drifting aimlessly in the country. But if you would have shown just how much one farmer can do now with all the mechanization in farming, it would have begged the question to people in the 19th Century, what are people going to do then if there's only a handfull jobs in agriculture?

[JohnDonne]

I'm surprised you are not convinced that automation will result in an employment crisis. What makes you think otherwise?

Just remember that in economics there is a thing called supply and demand.

If everybody, or large number of people would be unemployed, who the fuck would need an army of robots? If vast amounts of people are laid off, they likely won't consume as before, and likely the economy is worse off. If the economy is worse off, who in hell will make investements? You see, you need a demand somewhere (not perhaps in your country, but somewhere) in order for making investments in the first Place.

Because the idea of machines taking over people's jobs was something quite real during the industrial revolution in the 19th Century? So what happened to all those fears that the luddites were talking about? They didn't emerge.

Look how many people in the US (or basically everywhere) were in farming and the agricultural sector in the end of the 19th Century. Look how many are there now. Yet there aren't hoardes of hungry unemployed people drifting aimlessly in the country. But if you would have shown just how much one farmer can do now with all the mechanization in farming, it would have begged the question to people in the 19th Century, what are people going to do then if there's only a handfull jobs in agriculture?

You make good points, it's hard to imagine the doors that will open in the future economy.

But of course, just as one must avoid falling into the "Doom" fallacies one must avoid the "It will be fine because it's always been fine" fallacy.

Personally I'm hoping to become a robot-herd on an asteroid mine.

[JohnDonne]

Well considering that Walmart pays less than ten and they employ millions(?) more than mom and pop you just melted the economy. Good job

Does the economy melt because Walmart fires everyone or because Walmart shuts down? If Walmart shut down I would say wait for the small businesses to come in and fill the vacuum.

If Walmart fires everyone and they automate everything I'd argue they were about to do that anyway and we should be focusing on a minimum income, not a minimum wage.

Hey I mean if you want to burn it all down to see what happens that's fine with me too. Just watch out for all those proles you put out of work and hope THE GOVERNMENT WILL FIX IT (pro tip, they won't)

I don't want to burn it all down, just spit-balling some notions.

But look, the government might fix it, we're supposed to be the government so it really starts with us deciding what we really want. And you must admit governments have fixed lots of things and some problems are suited for government, like infrastructure.

[ssu]

You make good points, it's hard to imagine the doors that will open in the future economy.

But of course, just as one must avoid falling into the "Doom" fallacies one must avoid the "It will be fine because it's always been fine" fallacy.

Personally I'm hoping to become a robot-herd on an asteroid mine.

A robot-herder on an asteroid mine would be great. Unfortunately you'll just be sitting in a control room here on Earth with bored-to-death fellow workers giving commands that the robots will do within some minutes.

But you are correct, the idea of utter "Doom" is usually nonsense, but so is the rosy picture also. More realistic approach is to assume that things will basically suck. How much and just what specifically will really suck is the interesting question.

But make no mistake, people in the future will look back at that start of the 21st Century (now) and just hope that some things would be the same as then. Not likely everything, but some things. After all, if today is so bad, then what time would you like live in history? The 1950's? Pick any date, and I can assure that if you get sick, you will have inferior medical treatment than at the present.

[TheReal_ND]

Does the economy melt because Walmart fires everyone or because Walmart shuts down? If Walmart shut down I would say wait for the small businesses to come in and fill the vacuum.

If Walmart fires everyone and they automate everything I'd argue they were about to do that anyway and we should be focusing on a minimum income, not a minimum wage.

Hey I mean if you want to burn it all down to see what happens that's fine with me too. Just watch out for all those proles you put out of work and hope THE GOVERNMENT WILL FIX IT (pro tip, they won't)

I don't want to burn it all down, just spit-balling some notions.

But look, the government might fix it, we're supposed to be the government so it really starts with us deciding what we really want. And you must admit governments have fixed lots of things and some problems are suited for government, like infrastructure.

This government doesn't represent me. It's actively killed my people in the past. It's currently standing aside and admitting ethnic displacement. It's assumed a position of interest with my displacees. I have no fucking locks on my van because they have all been keyed out. Fuck your government.

[Speaker to Animals]

The important point here is that a rise in minimum wage is going to first affect the number of workers. When you increase the price for something, demand falls.

The labor market is not exempt from supply and demand.

Focusing on the impact on prices is a red herring. A rise in minimum wage could have some affect on prices, but more likely, it will only reduce economic activity. There will be less of the same goods and services being sold, but prices could easily remain the same. The primary impact is on price fixing in the labor market, not all these other markets that are only indirectly affected.

To see the impact of these laws, you need to look at the change in employment after the law went into effect. Most likely, you will see some increase in unemployment, welfare applications, etc. I have my doubts that it will affect a whole lot outside of a few industries, honestly, but it will definitely affect the poor in a negative way.

If the left wants to actually do something about stagnant wages and subsistence living, they could -- I don't know -- stop advocating for the mass flooding and glutting of the labor market through unfettered immigration??

Do you think its plausible that with rapid automation in the next few decades America will be left with the choice between some form of Fascism vs. International Communism?

We will transition to a new economic system. Capitalism has run it's course. Socialism/communism doesn't work.