Income Inequality

User avatar
DBTrek
Posts: 12241
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:04 pm

Re: Income Inequality

Post by DBTrek » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:40 am

GrumpyCatFace wrote:Well nobody is proposing full Communism here. You can still make more if you do choose to get educated and work, but the UBI would serve for those that aren't needed or motivated to do so.
When everyone in America can choose to work or not, what do you do when the "or not" demographic outstrips the workers ability to support the needs of the non-workers? And it's fairly inevitable that through a combination of natural laziness and the propensity of the lower economic classes to reproduce at higher rates than others, the "or not" demographic WILL outstrip the worker's ability to subsidize them.

This is extremely shortsighted.
Really, any amount of reflection upon this topic should be sufficient to reveal the fatal flaws with the plan.
"Hey varmints, don't mess with a guy that's riding a buffalo"

User avatar
The Conservative
Posts: 14797
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:43 am

Re: Income Inequality

Post by The Conservative » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:45 am

DBTrek wrote:
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Well nobody is proposing full Communism here. You can still make more if you do choose to get educated and work, but the UBI would serve for those that aren't needed or motivated to do so.
When everyone in America can choose to work or not, what do you do when the "or not" demographic outstrips the workers ability to support the needs of the non-workers? And it's fairly inevitable that through a combination of natural laziness and the propensity of the lower economic classes to reproduce at higher rates than others, the "or not" demographic WILL outstrip the worker's ability to subsidize them.

This is extremely shortsighted.
Really, any amount of reflection upon this topic should be sufficient to reveal the fatal flaws with the plan.
Yeah, and heaven forbid we actually want to work, but are told we can't because a "machine" has taken over said job.
#NotOneRedCent

User avatar
Martin Hash
Posts: 18732
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:02 pm

Re: Income Inequality

Post by Martin Hash » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:54 am

I question the wisdom of anyone who thinks that given a chance for an easy life, most people would not choose to coast rather than work.
Shamedia, Shamdemic, Shamucation, Shamlection, Shamconomy & Shamate Change

User avatar
The Conservative
Posts: 14797
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:43 am

Re: Income Inequality

Post by The Conservative » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:02 am

Martin Hash wrote:I question the wisdom of anyone who thinks that given a chance for an easy life, most people would not choose to coast rather than work.
I didn't work for almost 4 years, I can't tell you how much that nearly drove me crazy. I need to work, I need to stay busy... I need to do things... otherwise I would go nuts...

If I had "time to myself" I would start a garden, I would build a forge, a wood working area, and I'd start up a business... there is no way in hell I could "just coast" that isn't in my blood.
#NotOneRedCent

User avatar
Speaker to Animals
Posts: 38685
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:59 pm

Re: Income Inequality

Post by Speaker to Animals » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:13 am

Given a welfare state that enforces the choice of doing jack shit for a little money and competing in a zero-sum economic game that is totally rigged against them, most people would choose the easier option.

However, if you look at history, most humans who were able to live without toil have devoted themselves to various pursuits. It's the welfare state that is killing people's minds and souls.

A universal income is still a ways off from being practical, but I can think of no other alternative. I do believe, however, that most people will pursue interests. They won't just sit there on a couch like people do in the welfare state (because they have no other legal options).

People will produce culture, work on science projects, invent, etc. If everything gets automated, forcing people to work just because will result in abject hopelessness. People need meaning in their lives. Work because "fuck you I have mine" imposes just as much hopelessness and meaningless as the welfare state currently does.

User avatar
The Conservative
Posts: 14797
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:43 am

Re: Income Inequality

Post by The Conservative » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:20 am

Speaker to Animals wrote:Given a welfare state that enforces the choice of doing jack shit for a little money and competing in a zero-sum economic game that is totally rigged against them, most people would choose the easier option.

However, if you look at history, most humans who were able to live without toil have devoted themselves to various pursuits. It's the welfare state that is killing people's minds and souls.

A universal income is still a ways off from being practical, but I can think of no other alternative. I do believe, however, that most people will pursue interests. They won't just sit there on a couch like people do in the welfare state (because they have no other legal options).

People will produce culture, work on science projects, invent, etc. If everything gets automated, forcing people to work just because will result in abject hopelessness. People need meaning in their lives. Work because "fuck you I have mine" imposes just as much hopelessness and meaningless as the welfare state currently does.
Yeah, except that one way or another, an "universal income" to some will still be considered welfare, because there is no way in hell they are going to accept money that they didn't "earn"...
#NotOneRedCent

User avatar
Speaker to Animals
Posts: 38685
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:59 pm

Re: Income Inequality

Post by Speaker to Animals » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:21 am

The Conservative wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:Given a welfare state that enforces the choice of doing jack shit for a little money and competing in a zero-sum economic game that is totally rigged against them, most people would choose the easier option.

However, if you look at history, most humans who were able to live without toil have devoted themselves to various pursuits. It's the welfare state that is killing people's minds and souls.

A universal income is still a ways off from being practical, but I can think of no other alternative. I do believe, however, that most people will pursue interests. They won't just sit there on a couch like people do in the welfare state (because they have no other legal options).

People will produce culture, work on science projects, invent, etc. If everything gets automated, forcing people to work just because will result in abject hopelessness. People need meaning in their lives. Work because "fuck you I have mine" imposes just as much hopelessness and meaningless as the welfare state currently does.
Yeah, except that one way or another, an "universal income" to some will still be considered welfare, because there is no way in hell they are going to accept money that they didn't "earn"...

It's not welfare by any definition of the word welfare. Welfare is for people down on their luck. It's designed to keep people in poverty. Universal income is for everybody. You get that no matter who you are, whether you work, or whatever. A universal income does not create an incentive to avoid work at all.

User avatar
Calculus Man
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:22 pm

Re: Income Inequality

Post by Calculus Man » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:22 am

Anyone here ever read Vonnegut's Player Piano?

Not his best work, but his portrayal of make-work gangs was absolutely devastating. A real-life "Reeks and Wrecks" is unlikely to be the solution. I have a hard time seeing how pointless work is better than no work, even if I agree with DB that we cannot turn 75% of humanity into consumer sloths.

User avatar
Speaker to Animals
Posts: 38685
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:59 pm

Re: Income Inequality

Post by Speaker to Animals » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:32 am

We are faced with two negative potentials argued from each side: (1) automation will result in the vast majority of people being disenfranchised from jobs. (2) If people have access to a universal income, then a lot of people would choose not to work, innovate, or contribute to society in any way. That's what each side is basically arguing.

But if the ability to feed yourself, raise a family under a roof in a safe neighborhood, and so on, remains contingent upon access to a job, then most people will essentially be told to die or shuffled to a welfare state where you have to spend money on them anyway. So argument (2), in my opinion, is rubbish from the start if you accept automation as inevitable.

Furthermore, (2) does not comport to historical evidence in which aristocratic or otherwise very privileged classes still chose to work on their own pursuits, increasing culture, science, and even medicine on their own. Most of the Enlightenment aristocracy, for example, devoted themselves to intellectual pursuits. Jefferson, who lived off the labor of slaves, spent his time in political, scientific, and philosophical pursuits.

The reason you don't see that in the welfare state is because: (A) the welfare state actually requires that people not work in any way. If they show any aptitude for innovation or work, the rug is pulled from beneath them and they starve or find work (which in our near future is not going to be possible). (B) the welfare state creates further disincentives by drastically cutting welfare/disability funds if the person can manage part-time work. It's not economically feasible for people on these programs to work part-time even when they can or want to do so. The system is designed top-to-bottom to keep people out of the workforce and dependent upon the bureaucracy. (C) most of the people in the welfare systems were already compromised by a corrupt and useless government school system that denied them in many case of even literacy. (D) Other government policies encourage some classes of people (especially women) to become totally dependent upon the system in order to farm them for votes, further increasing the cancer of the welfare state.

If we continue down this current path, we are going to get a fuck ton of (1), with increasingly ignorant people driven to hopelessness and despair (and likely to crime). (2) Has it's pitfalls, but it's not an obvious dead-end like (1).

User avatar
The Conservative
Posts: 14797
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:43 am

Re: Income Inequality

Post by The Conservative » Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:38 am

Speaker to Animals wrote:
The Conservative wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:Given a welfare state that enforces the choice of doing jack shit for a little money and competing in a zero-sum economic game that is totally rigged against them, most people would choose the easier option.

However, if you look at history, most humans who were able to live without toil have devoted themselves to various pursuits. It's the welfare state that is killing people's minds and souls.

A universal income is still a ways off from being practical, but I can think of no other alternative. I do believe, however, that most people will pursue interests. They won't just sit there on a couch like people do in the welfare state (because they have no other legal options).

People will produce culture, work on science projects, invent, etc. If everything gets automated, forcing people to work just because will result in abject hopelessness. People need meaning in their lives. Work because "fuck you I have mine" imposes just as much hopelessness and meaningless as the welfare state currently does.
Yeah, except that one way or another, an "universal income" to some will still be considered welfare, because there is no way in hell they are going to accept money that they didn't "earn"...

It's not welfare by any definition of the word welfare. Welfare is for people down on their luck. It's designed to keep people in poverty. Universal income is for everybody. You get that no matter who you are, whether you work, or whatever. A universal income does not create an incentive to avoid work at all.
That would only work if the income is greater than a living wage... otherwise you may as well call it welfare.
#NotOneRedCent