Seriously, no one is talking about the riots?

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

America was founded as a Confederacy. A loose confederation of separate "nation-states". It got rid of that Constitution (illegally and unethically) but hey who cares now...

Anyway, Under the Constitution and according to a summary of Anglo-Saxon common law and tradition/history America was founded on liberty (this isn't exactly synonymous with freedom the way we think of it usually). It generally meant dignity/honors with obligations. Jefferson meant "able to flourish" with his "pursuit of happiness. Rule of law and private property were also of paramount importance. The Bill of Rights was kind of an after thought but has been seen as truly "American" by most. Its more similar to English Bill of Rights than most care to remember or mention. There was an obligation of to serve in the militia hence the 2nd. Due Process is /was a real thing and meant something back then and I'd say yes it part of what we were founded on. In a lot of ways we were a proposition concept. There were many "nations" with even the United States straight through to the current time. Americana /mythology is vaguely about the above and with the added lie of endless acceptance and tolerance of massive immigration from wherever.

American Firsters kind of believe the above as well as Paleoconservatives. So do most people that think Lincoln was a good President (except the multiple nations part of the above summary). Then theres a split into two basic still "Americana" types of people...They (those that believe in an America) have more or less been one long march of abolition since 1830ish. This worldview is the dominant one in America. It is unionist at its core, and best described as ironically Puritan-Quakerist. They fervently preach and demand "tolerance" and they are very intolerant of non compliance. They are allied with Antifa/BLM types fundamentally.

Personally I don't think a concept nation or also based on more and more democratic /popular democracy tendencies can or should last. It wont last in this form for more than 10-20 years. Iron law here...democracy leads to mob rule, then lastly and finally to tyranny. I am not for mob rule. I do not believe people without skin in the game should be allowed to vote. I do not think we have a main cohesive culture in America. I do not think that is a stable thing, to be multiracial , non cultural (money and fame is king), and selectively enforcing laws etc. will allow this form of our country to last. Proposition concept "nations" can act like they stand for diversity and tolerance and that will be our strength and unity etc. But its illusionary. All the while Christianity played a crucial cultural/religious role throughout all the nations of America but its the one withering and the one most so called Americans don't want to pay homage to anymore. This is another reason for thin veil of americanism is being lifted up to show nothing but a vacuous people.

If this seems all over the place and incoherent, well it should, its the "America" you're living in.

Repeal the 17th - amirite?

Tolerance is an interesting term. I always take it to mean something akin to 'forbearance in the face of adversity,' which is certainly a virtue, and a necessary quality in a large, pluralistic society where conflicts are inevitable.

Conflicts are also instructive.

Show me a conflict-free society, and I will show you the soft and ineffectual Eloi.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

This is the difference between hating Trump because you don’t like the man but will probably vote for him anyway to save liberty, and hating Trump because you hate liberty and want egalitarianism. Might be a defining feature of TDS, I’m not sure?

Is it possible to think Trump simply isn't the best guarantor of liberty?

So far he has been. All the things he does, I would do, so how can I argue with myself. If it’s him vs. any Dem then him, and I was a Dem for 41 years. Liberty enables jerks and jerks tend to enable liberty; see my favorite president, Teddy Roosevelt, who The Left hates with a passion.

You don't argue with yourself?

I do - but I usually just call it thinking.

Anyway, I would probably do a lot of things Trump did, and I would be a shitty President, perfectly willing to deprive people that irritate me of liberty if the other institutions of America let me.

[Martin Hash]

Liberty is the primary imperative; a shitty president that defends liberty is a successful president.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Liberty is the primary imperative; a shitty president that defends liberty is a successful president.

The extent to which liberty has expanded in the last 4 years is debatable.

[Martin Hash]

Liberty is the primary imperative; a shitty president that defends liberty is a successful president.

The extent to which liberty has expanded in the last 4 years is debatable.

That’s an odd goal post. Trump was awesome just to hold the goddamn line. Bush, Jr. was a fucking destroyer of liberty, and Obama used all that apparatus too. Hell, it looks like he used it on Trump!

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Liberty is the primary imperative; a shitty president that defends liberty is a successful president.

The extent to which liberty has expanded in the last 4 years is debatable.

That’s an odd goal post. Trump was awesome just to hold the goddamn line. Bush, Jr. was a fucking destroyer of liberty, and Obama used all that apparatus too. Hell, it looks like he used it on Trump!

Which apparatus? Drone Strikes? Executive orders? Threats of coercion through agents of the state? Using federal agencies to investigate and attack your enemies and protect your allies from censure?

Trump has done all of these things. And, he might have had very good reasons, but thems the Bush/Obama apparatus.

Just about anyone could have been relied on to hold that line.

[Martin Hash]

FISA Courts. Patriot Act. Foreign Wars.

[Martin Hash]

Dude, really, if you think Dems are the protectors of liberty, that’s TDS. I don’t want to spend anymore time debating you. I was just reveling in how rational the forum is without constant TDS incoming.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

x

(edited: I posted this before reading the debate was no longer fun or interesting to the other party)

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Dude, really, if you think Dems are the protectors of liberty, that’s TDS. I don’t want to spend anymore time debating you. I was just reveling in how rational the forum is without constant TDS incoming.

You brought up Trump, bruv.