Public School Education System Thread

[Fife]

[BjornP]

I like the idea of a small core of necessary material and elective learning, which involves the parents, and not the fed. If you want the traditional approach, then go for it. But this way kids aren't held back and learning is less of a chore. I think they would be more inclined to actually learn to think for themselves this way and may go on to develop a love of learning.

Not sure why I get why learning something shouldn't be a chore, or how that's a bad thing? Routine, tedious and cumbersome work is usually a neccesary step towards an education in most fields. Learning something requires a great deal of self-discipline, something you're not likely to find alot of among kids, especially in their teenage years. Not among many adults, either, tbh.

Anybody, not just kids, learn to think for themselves by being able to think critically about the information they're presented with. By knowing how to check what's facts and what's not. Just how well and how many among the rest of society, among adults, are currently able to discern what's credible or non-credible information? Who's there to teach the kids? And if there are any, how likely is it that they won't just be accused of and hounded for "brainwashing" children because they call *insert political group that doesn't like to be called liars" liars?

[DBTrek]

Here’s one of many facts I’ve never seen addressed:

NCES:

Total expenditures for public elementary and secondary schools in the United States in 2013–14 amounted to $634 billion, or $12,509 per public school student enrolled in the fall (in constant 2015–16 dollars)

Tired Teacher Mantra: “We don’t even have enough for school supplies! I have to buy them with my own paycheck! More taxes to fund education!!!”

Obvious Question: How are we already paying over $12k for every kid in your classroom and you don’t have any pencils? Is it because we’re not giving you enough money, or could it possibly be that you all are extremely irresponsible with the considerable money already at your disposal?

[Okeefenokee]

Here’s one of many facts I’ve never seen addressed:

NCES:

Total expenditures for public elementary and secondary schools in the United States in 2013–14 amounted to $634 billion, or $12,509 per public school student enrolled in the fall (in constant 2015–16 dollars)

Tired Teacher Mantra: “We don’t even have enough for school supplies! I have to buy them with my own paycheck! More taxes to fund education!!!”

Obvious Question: How are we already paying over $12k for every kid in your classroom and you don’t have any pencils? Is it because we’re not giving you enough money, or could it possibly be that you all are extremely irresponsible with the considerable money already at your disposal?

[BjornP]

Some stats comparing OECD countries expenditures pr student:

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp

Not sure which of the "Assesments" stats, on the same page, is best for comparisons on what you get for being in that top five, though.

[SuburbanFarmer]

I like the idea of a small core of necessary material and elective learning, which involves the parents, and not the fed. If you want the traditional approach, then go for it. But this way kids aren't held back and learning is less of a chore. I think they would be more inclined to actually learn to think for themselves this way and may go on to develop a love of learning.

Not sure why I get why learning something shouldn't be a chore, or how that's a bad thing? Routine, tedious and cumbersome work is usually a neccesary step towards an education in most fields. Learning something requires a great deal of self-discipline, something you're not likely to find alot of among kids, especially in their teenage years. Not among many adults, either, tbh.

Anybody, not just kids, learn to think for themselves by being able to think critically about the information they're presented with. By knowing how to check what's facts and what's not. Just how well and how many among the rest of society, among adults, are currently able to discern what's credible or non-credible information? Who's there to teach the kids? And if there are any, how likely is it that they won't just be accused of and hounded for "brainwashing" children because they call *insert political group that doesn't like to be called liars" liars?

I find it’s easiest to start with toy commercials. Explain to them that it doesn’t really do what it looks like, and then make sure they see the end product. Lesson is pretty easy for them to grasp.

[doc_loliday]

Not sure why I get why learning something shouldn't be a chore, or how that's a bad thing? Routine, tedious and cumbersome work is usually a neccesary step towards an education in most fields. Learning something requires a great deal of self-discipline, something you're not likely to find alot of among kids, especially in their teenage years. Not among many adults, either, tbh.

From the preceding paragraph

I hope it goes without saying that children should be pushed into uncomfortable situations, simply because a lot of kids would do nothing.

Learning comes more easily when there is a natural interest, and those interests are worth being developed, which comes with dedication and hard work.

I think my larger points are being missed. Can parents and students have no input on the students' interests and trajectory? Aren't there different tracks for students to take in many European countries? Because in the US, those have been all but banished. There are only a few elective classes a student might take in their entire education. I don't think forcing every student down the same track does much good, which should be evident because students don't remember much of anything after the semester ends and they don't pursue it further. 1, 2, 5, or 20 years down the road, how many recall geometric proofs? At least some time in school should be used to develop ones natural talents at the expense of some less desired subject, right? I think there is more critical thinking developed when students actually learn, and that is acquired more readily when the student has some interest.

The uniformity and homogeneity of our school system isn't what makes the US special. It just stifles our creativity.

It's worth noting that students in Montessori schools do better then their publicly schooled peers, but I wouldn't necessarily even use that as an argument, because in the US, students that go to private schools, religious schools, hippie schools, and home schools all perform better.

[Martin Hash]

Kids teach themselves. If math was wrapped in Call Of Duty, or science in Stars Wars sims, lots of kids would become proficient because they wanted to, way more than rote learning. Reading & writing is self-taught too, little kids texting proves that.

The "teaching" paradign is just self-interest by the academic establishment.

p.s. Supporting doc here.

[BjornP]

Not sure why I get why learning something shouldn't be a chore, or how that's a bad thing? Routine, tedious and cumbersome work is usually a neccesary step towards an education in most fields. Learning something requires a great deal of self-discipline, something you're not likely to find alot of among kids, especially in their teenage years. Not among many adults, either, tbh.

From the preceding paragraph

I hope it goes without saying that children should be pushed into uncomfortable situations, simply because a lot of kids would do nothing.

Learning comes more easily when there is a natural interest, and those interests are worth being developed, which comes with dedication and hard work.

I think my larger points are being missed. Can parents and students have no input on the students' interests and trajectory? Aren't there different tracks for students to take in many European countries? Because in the US, those have been all but banished. There are only a few elective classes a student might take in their entire education. I don't think forcing every student down the same track does much good, which should be evident because students don't remember much of anything after the semester ends and they don't pursue it further. 1, 2, 5, or 20 years down the road, how many recall geometric proofs? At least some time in school should be used to develop ones natural talents at the expense of some less desired subject, right? I think there is more critical thinking developed when students actually learn, and that is acquired more readily when the student has some interest.

The uniformity and homogeneity of our school system isn't what makes the US special. It just stifles our creativity.

It's worth noting that students in Montessori schools do better then their publicly schooled peers, but I wouldn't necessarily even use that as an argument, because in the US, students that go to private schools, religious schools, hippie schools, and home schools all perform better.

Apologies for overlooking the preceding paragraph.

I am not sure of the extent where American schools differ from our own, and am not certain about that many other European education sectors. I had two elective classes in elementary school, and in secondary level education it was mostly electives, but this changes depends on what sort of secondary level education you pick (tech, craftsmanship, academic or business). I suppose that's what you mean by different tracks. If you, or more specifically your children, are lacking choices on that account, then I think I do understand better what you mean by learning being a chore.

Is the reason students are pushed down the same track (I'm guessing toward college?), purely driven by politics, you think? Or does it also have some cultural reasons? I'm wondering specifically if/to which extent there is popular.... "prestige", so to speak, in being a highly qualified mechanic compared to say, a doctor, a physicist or a really any natural science college educated profession?

[doc_loliday]

I am not sure of the extent where American schools differ from our own, and am not certain about that many other European education sectors. I had two elective classes in elementary school, and in secondary level education it was mostly electives, but this changes depends on what sort of secondary level education you pick (tech, craftsmanship, academic or business). I suppose that's what you mean by different tracks. If you, or more specifically your children, are lacking choices on that account, then I think I do understand better what you mean by learning being a chore.

Is the reason students are pushed down the same track (I'm guessing toward college?), purely driven by politics, you think? Or does it also have some cultural reasons? I'm wondering specifically if/to which extent there is popular.... "prestige", so to speak, in being a highly qualified mechanic compared to say, a doctor, a physicist or a really any natural science college educated profession?

In the US, electives don't even exist in elementary school as far as I know. Those are reserved for middle and high school and even then, there aren't many to choose from. I was in choir in middle school and in high school I got to choose what language I wanted to learn. I took two semesters of Spanish for example. We don't have business, tech, or craftsmanship tracks and we don't have vocational schools.

And it is because all students are pushed to go to college. I am quite convinced that this simply to keep the steady flow of tax dollars going to an ever increasing education bureaucracy. Just look at how much money go to our schools, its crazy. So, yes, the trades have been demonized, they are what children are regularly threatened with and so we have multiple generations led to believe they must go to high school, college, obtain a masters and/or PhD if they want any kind of monetary success and to have a shot at any kind of happiness. As such, our colleges are often filled with remedial students and kids that cannot do math or read at the high school level.

Our city college graduation rates are less than 10% and those are inflated numbers. Four year universities do much better, but are filled with stunted kids who spend far longer than four years. US universities are big business. The ever increasing costs are passed onto the taxpayer, while mountains of debt dollars, incurred by teenagers who were told by every adult they ever knew that they must borrow this money, which legally cannot be cleared by bankruptcy, are funneled into their coffers, while international students pay a fortune to attend them. It's revolting.

Edit: When I was a kid, we had the GATE (gifted and talented education) program, but these programs are often attacked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gifted_ed ... troversies