Social Justice Warriors Thread

[GloryofGreece]

I don't think Hobbes anticipated a social space where humans communicated without being able to see each other's faces and bodies and hear the tone, pitch, volume and the range of emotion in the voices of the people we are talking to...

The internet is not communication with "no filter", it is mass communication with too many filters.

Yea he didn't anticipate that no one did. But he did say what happens without order ....chaos /Barbary / that's the internet hence my statement

He sure did. Problem with Hobbes, though, is that he wants a strong, centralized State to apply order in society, for society. Because he has no trust in people being able to govern themselves, no trust in non-state society. I tend to disagree with that. Those lack of filters I speak of a few lines up? Does not imply a desire for more control . It is simply a fact that citizens need to keep in mind when communicating on mass media platforms, iow education. You had a president who said it well:

"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education." - Thomas Jefferson

I don't desire more control but understand the basic need for it. Hobbes was basically right and Rousseau was essentially wrong. And Jefferson wanted an agrarian society with so called "virtue" nurturing the people and communities. The problem with that concept is that it was based on his and other Founder's love affair with a Edward Gibbon view of the Roman Empire/Republic. And while Gibbons take on Roman Civilization was /is good it isn't complete or as contextualized as it should be. Romans didnt have Republican Virtue just from civic nationalism. They had virtue b/c of their ancestor cult/religion/family vales as well.

[Speaker to Animals]

I think Hobbes was wrong. If he were alive today, with access to our knowledge of human evolution, anthropology, and evolutionary psychology, I think he'd re-write that book.

In particular, human cooperation and group identity play a very big role in the formation of human bands and culture. It was not a story of the strongest man subjugating the rest to create order and acquiring sovereignty. Quite the opposite. We exterminated the alpha genes from our species. Cooperation did that.

I do not agree with Hobbes at all about much, but he was a very astute political philosopher who I think worked with what little he had available at the time.

[GloryofGreece]

I think Hobbes was wrong. If he were alive today, with access to our knowledge of human evolution, anthropology, and evolutionary psychology, I think he'd re-write that book.

I do not agree with Hobbes at all about much, but he was a very astute political philosopher who I think worked with what little he had available at the time.

In your opinion how was Hobbes fundamentally wrong in his worldview?

[Speaker to Animals]

I think Hobbes was wrong. If he were alive today, with access to our knowledge of human evolution, anthropology, and evolutionary psychology, I think he'd re-write that book.

I do not agree with Hobbes at all about much, but he was a very astute political philosopher who I think worked with what little he had available at the time.

In your opinion how was Hobbes fundamentally wrong in his worldview?

I added that to the post above.

[Speaker to Animals]

I would also add that much of our progress and stability are maintained and advanced despite the Leviathan.

It's a bit easier to see in the tech world with the rise of open source and indie developers.

You also see, outside the cities, a movement to get away from the corporate/federal paradigm. We have the local food movement. We have communities building parks completely separate from the local municipality. Community farms.

We all tend towards the rejection of a Leviathan in small ways. Those things add up.

Why boasteth thyself, O evil men
Playing smart and-a not being clever!
I said you're working iniquity
To achieve vanity (if a-so, a-so),
But the goodness of Jah - Jah
Endureth for ever

So if you are the big tree,
We are the small axe
Ready to cut you down, (well sharp)
To cut you down

These are the words of my master
Keep on tellin' me: no weak heart shall prosper

Eh! Whosoever diggeth a pit
Shall fall in it - fall in it
And whosoever diggeth a pit
Shall fall in it (fall in it)

If you are the big tree,
Let me tell you that: we are the small axe
Sharpened ready ready to cut you down, (well sharp)
To cut you down.

[GloryofGreece]

I think Hobbes was wrong. If he were alive today, with access to our knowledge of human evolution, anthropology, and evolutionary psychology, I think he'd re-write that book.

I do not agree with Hobbes at all about much, but he was a very astute political philosopher who I think worked with what little he had available at the time.

In your opinion how was Hobbes fundamentally wrong in his worldview?

I added that to the post above.

So you think he was wrong about human nature? I think he was basically right with most people proclivities.

[GloryofGreece]

I think biologically humans are wrestling between mutual cooperation and competition. It isn't all one or the other. It waxes and wanes so to speak. And different environments nurture one way slightly more to a lot more depending on the community or region etc.

[Speaker to Animals]

I think biologically humans are wrestling between mutual cooperation and competition. It isn't all one or the other. It waxes and wanes so to speak. And different environments nurture one way slightly more to a lot more depending on the community or region etc.

I think he is wrong.

Rousseau had the right idea in that he tried to figure out how human beings naturally organize into primitive societies, but the only thing he had to go on was inaccurate information about how various primitive tribes behaved in the Americas, and then he idealized his incorrect assumptions as the concept of the noble savage.

What we do know about the human species is that we are a patrilocal species without an alpha leader. There are no homo sapien silverbacks. What this means is that the natural state of humanity is small gangs of men where women migrate between gangs. All of our evolutionary psychology stems from this, especially how women and men are very different creatures, with completely different evolutionary bases.

Even in semi-paleolithic tribes in the Americas, the chief was not an absolute ruler. Sovereignty was shared amongst the elders. The elders decided whether to make war. You saw this in all the tribal laws of Europe in antiquity and the very early medieval period. Saxon kingdoms, for example, had kings, but important decisions were made by the Wittan. Frankish tribes had similar structures.

Further. the idea that individuals surrendered their ability to make war upon one another within a human group is demonstrably false. We know that almost all very primitive people are exceedingly violent towards one another, with murder being a leading cause of death. Even in our own European history, killing your social or political enemy was quite common and just taken for granted until the late medieval period when we evolved new genetic adaptations that made our complex society possible.

Hobbes was wrong because he had no way of understanding human evolution or genetics, and therefore no meaningful way to understand human nature at all.

There is not one human nature either. There are human natures. It depends upon the human group you are studying. We all have quite a lot in common, but there exist very small, subtle differences that amplify to very big differences when you advance towards civilization.

[PartyOf5]

I hopped in fakebook for the first time in months and someone had reposted something with a picture of a McDs plastic soda cup (with top & straw on it) on a beach... Saying "if you see things like this, take a picture of it and tag the company that is branded on it to shake them".

Yeah, because it's McDs fault...not the asshole that couldn't be bothered to find a garbage can to toss it into...

I hate FB. I visit once in a while because some of the kids' athletics and my softball league uses it to post updates, pics, schedules, etc. I rarely post anything. Sadly that is the sole method of communication some of my friends and family use to keep others updated. I do end up missing some things only to find out about them moths later when we finally do meet in person.

99.9% of it falls into one of these categories:
- Happy, happy every single day, look how great my life is. High degree of bragging. Oh, and look where I ate lunch today.
- Pet videos
- Memes and inspirational sayings
- Political snark which leads to "friends" arguing in a public forum.
- Happy birthday, anniversary, etc..
- Vague slights at someone not named or other general vague posts designed to illicit responses of "OMG! what is going on?".

All from people who never call or text you directly.

[Speaker to Animals]

I guess in a nutshell, Hobbes underestimates the role of identity and had no way of knowing how much cooperation (not surrendering the right to make war to a sovereign) played into the formation of all human bands.