Another School Shooting (Wrong Narrative Though)

[DBTrek]

And how many of those countries performing better than the US in those graphs, do not have public education, or even just do not allow public teachers to unionize?

Does it matter, Bjorn? Suppose, for the sake of argument, all of them support unions and public education. Suppose every single country above us which offers a superior education for considerably less money has both public education and unionized teachers.

How does that improve our situation?

[Speaker to Animals]

The problem with those lists is that they assume races are all the same. East Asians have a higher average IQ than whites, and whites a higher average IQ than Africans, for example. If you remove the multiracial disasters like the US from the list, you will see it roughly corresponds to the average IQ of the various races.

For the US, you really have to break it down by race.

Still, most people possess sufficient IQ to learn to read and write. A better way to look at this is by what basic skills we ought to be able to teach almost anybody that graduates lack (like being able to read a teen-level novel). Those skills are not being imparted.

[BjornP]

And how many of those countries performing better than the US in those graphs, do not have public education, or even just do not allow public teachers to unionize?

Does it matter, Bjorn? Suppose, for the sake of argument, all of them support unions and public education. Suppose every single country above us which offers a superior education for considerably less money has both public education and unionized teachers.

How does that improve our situation?

How does knowing the problem improve finding the solution? Well...

If you want to accurately pinpoint the cause , and thus get as close as possible to the best solution to a problem, it will generally matter that you look in the right direction - or at least away from the wrong direction.

Now, I don't believe that the cause of your lower education standards are that you won't allow public teachers to have the same liberty to unionize as you do. I simply think believing that it is the cause, is looking in the wrong direction. The cause is more that Americans don't want to hear, or tell someone else, that they're wrong - definitively wrong.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Goddammit, Bjorn, you're fucking with the narrative again. Just nod your head and agree, you dumb pixie-kin Euro.

[DBTrek]

He’s certainly beating down straw men. I pointed out that more money for a wasteful institution clearly isn’t an answer. He immediately launched in to “what if everyone better than you has public unions and education?”

“Well, what if they do?”

“THEN THAT’S NOT THE PROBLEM”.

Is that really a brilliant argument, or is it a talking point important to Bjorn? A point relying on the hypothetical supposition that all nations performing better than us are using systems Bjorn agrees with?

Hardly the “gotcha” of the century, from my perspective.

[Zero]

http://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=2592 ... id%3D17764

This article looks at some possible explanations.

DB, I cannot really speak to national data, and what’s going on, since there is so much variation. Locally, I can. Teachers are certainly a factor in the equation and,in short,should either perform or find another job. However, it’s not exactly appropriate to lay 100% of the blame at their feet as you seem to want to do. There are many factors at play.

[DBTrek]

http://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=2592 ... id%3D17764

This article looks at some possible explanations.

DB, I cannot really speak to national data, and what’s going on, since there is so much variation. Locally, I can. Teachers are certainly a factor in the equation and,in short,should either perform or find another job. However, it’s not exactly appropriate to lay 100% of the blame at their feet as you seem to want to do. There are many factors at play.

I lay 100% of the “It’s never us, our staggering administrative costs, our bloated and expensive bureaucracy, or our methods causing bad results, it’s always stuff we need more money to fix” blame at their feet.

They have more money.
They have 3x the money per student that other nations out-competing is have. Stop telling us it’s the money, going on strike for the money, passing taxes year after year for the money, and delivering the same poor quality shit.

That’s what I’m blaming them for. Treating taxpayers like stupid marks while the teachers accept zero blame for anything, ever. Has anyone here, even once in their life, seen a public educator stand up and say “we should be doing better, given the resources at our disposal”?

I’m betting no.

So while all the problems may not stem from factors the teachers can control, that’s hardly a problem in a nation where teachers accept zero of the blame by default.

[Speaker to Animals]

Race is a big factor here. NOBODY is able to educate a large population of Africans to the same level as whites or Asians anywhere. England has a large population of Africans. Same problem. In the grand scheme of things, America is pretty far ahead of the rest of the world in pulling Africans up to the level of Europeans on education. But it's not fair to bag everybody together and pretend like we're all the same when we are not.

Similarly, whites are not achieving what Japanese students achieve by and large for a good reason: they possess a higher average IQ.

[Speaker to Animals]

This is a table of nations ranked by average IQ:



Compare that to the chart provided by DB on education attainment.

[DrYouth]

educators always have an excuse that has nothing to do with their own incompetence.
What other profession allows you a lifelong career in a job where people repeatedly prove that they’re unqualified failures?

I agree with you that pouring more money into the education is not on it's own going to solve the education problem in the US.
My hunch is that academic success is yet another indicator of cultural cohesion.
Strong social fabric allows families and communities to maintain high expectations around academic excellence.
In these cultures academic success is expected and celebrated.

The US has lost this in it's social fabric for the most part... Canada isn't doing great either...

But it seems silly to blame the teachers for this... the best teachers struggle to get students to learn in a culture like this....
Whereas in a culture that maintains these values even mediocre teachers have good success...
Our social fabric is depleted and our students are demoralized...
the teachers don't really stand a chance no matter how much money we throw at them.