Sweden Capitulated

[Speaker to Animals]

I mean.. think about the implications if the bourgeois were to adopt true honor codes. Maybe it wouldn't work for them at all. Somebody would achieve great honor in taking great financial risk, failing, and then becoming unable to pay back his debtors. As long as his motivation was noble, it would be highly honorable for him.

Think about how that works for warriors. When Vienna was besieged, King Sobieski risked everything to meet his obligation to defend the city. Had he lost, he still would have been remembered with great honor for having led the hussar charge against the Turkish flank in some hopeless attempt to stop the jihad. Even the Turks would honor that.

But maybe that doesn't translate to city culture at all.

It's yet another example of how the urban culture really is something separate from the rest of our civilization.

[apeman]

I mean.. think about the implications if the bourgeois were to adopt true honor codes. Maybe it wouldn't work for them at all. Somebody would achieve great honor in taking great financial risk, failing, and then becoming unable to pay back his debtors. As long as his motivation was noble, it would be highly honorable for him.

Think about how that works for warriors. When Vienna was besieged, King Sobieski risked everything to meet his obligation to defend the city. Had he lost, he still would have been remembered with great honor for having led the hussar charge against the Turkish flank in some hopeless attempt to stop the jihad. Even the Turks would honor that.

But maybe that doesn't translate to city culture at all.

It's yet another example of how the urban culture really is something separate from the rest of our civilization.

Not sure if I understand the strict def of honor correctly, but my boss is a man of his word, a man whom handshakes are binding contracts. It sometimes totally screws him with dishonorable people, but he also keeps him clients forever once they find out what he is made of.

So there is some bourgeois honor code still, that is something other than a suicide pact

[Speaker to Animals]

I mean.. think about the implications if the bourgeois were to adopt true honor codes. Maybe it wouldn't work for them at all. Somebody would achieve great honor in taking great financial risk, failing, and then becoming unable to pay back his debtors. As long as his motivation was noble, it would be highly honorable for him.

Think about how that works for warriors. When Vienna was besieged, King Sobieski risked everything to meet his obligation to defend the city. Had he lost, he still would have been remembered with great honor for having led the hussar charge against the Turkish flank in some hopeless attempt to stop the jihad. Even the Turks would honor that.

But maybe that doesn't translate to city culture at all.

It's yet another example of how the urban culture really is something separate from the rest of our civilization.

Not sure if I understand the strict def of honor correctly, but my boss is a man of his word, a man whom handshakes are binding contracts. It sometimes totally screws him with dishonorable people, but he also keeps him clients forever once they find out what he is made of.

So there is some bourgeois honor code still, that is something other than a suicide pact

But that's the difference. What if unforeseen events mean that he cannot possibly honor the contract. Does that mean he is personally dishonored?

If he dishonors the contracts when he doesn't have to or out of greed, then I could definitely see it. But what if some lawsuit renders him bankrupt?

[apeman]

I get in now.

I suppose you would give your all to honor the agreement, and if you objectively fall short through bankruptcy, that is the bourgeoisie "death", maybe?

[Speaker to Animals]

And what I mean here is that you can measure success by two different paradigms: external objectives and internal objectives.

For instance, if you are looking for a job, your external objective is to get a decent job. But your internal objective is to submit a certain number of resumes each week, show up to interviews, etc.

Internalized objectives are things you control. You only have partial control over externalized objectives. Failing to meet an externalized objective due to some things that you have control over can be dishonorable, but failing to meet externalized objectives due to factors out of your control are not.


In warfare, your external objective is to win a battle or a war. You don't have total control over that in most cases. But you do have total control over internal objectives, such as carrying out your duty no matter what, courage, etc. In fact, we honor the losers of battles all the time. Jim Bowie losing the Alamo and being found beneath a pile of Mexican soldiers, for example, is honored whereas Santa Anna is not so much honored. We even honor several Indian war chiefs who lost but fought so fiercely that they are now American legends.

This is why Trump's comment about liking the "winners" rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. He doesn't understand honor I think because he is an urbanite and only has those bourgeois values.

[Smitty-48]

I wouldn't bind you to my fate tho, if push came to shove, I'd tell you to cut the rope, ain't no sense in us both going, low man frees the high man, to the summit and beyond, mission over men.

It's funny, I took my little brother to see that movie when he was in short pants, he was so scared he was hiding his face in his shirt. That opening scene, that was about it for him, he wanted to leave, I said hell no, this movie looks good already, sit the fuck down.

[Speaker to Animals]

I think maybe military honor is totally antithetical to the commercial culture of the cities the more I consider it. They have their own kind of honor that has to do with contracts. It's sort of why I don't like libertarians much, perhaps.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Really has nothing to do with civilian v. military, there are civilians who operate beyond the walls of the Burg and so beyond the force and protection of law and so reliant on the honour of other men for providence and ultimate survival, honour is a warriors code, a gentleman is a warrior by nature, but you do not have to go to Paris Island to be a man of honour, nor does Paris Island make you a man of honour by default.

Like that time Smitty defended the Canadian cop who kill civilians by doing 75 in a 25, and then saying it was ok because law something something law.

Exactly.

If I follow his argument correctly, he's saying that any amount of screwing of your fellow citizens is "honourable", if done legally.

Once the law defines "honour", then what the hell is honorable behavior? Lobbying groups, career politicians, banksters, and the CIA are all "honorable", because they didn't break the law????

I re-submit - honor means holding fast to your principles. Nothing else.

[Fife]

And what I mean here is that you can measure success by two different paradigms: external objectives and internal objectives.

For instance, if you are looking for a job, your external objective is to get a decent job. But your internal objective is to submit a certain number of resumes each week, show up to interviews, etc.

Internalized objectives are things you control. You only have partial control over externalized objectives. Failing to meet an externalized objective due to some things that you have control over can be dishonorable, but failing to meet externalized objectives due to factors out of your control are not.


In warfare, your external objective is to win a battle or a war. You don't have total control over that in most cases. But you do have total control over internal objectives, such as carrying out your duty no matter what, courage, etc. In fact, we honor the losers of battles all the time. Jim Bowie losing the Alamo and being found beneath a pile of Mexican soldiers, for example, is honored whereas Santa Anna is not so much honored. We even honor several Indian war chiefs who lost but fought so fiercely that they are now American legends.

This is why Trump's comment about liking the "winners" rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. He doesn't understand honor I think because he is an urbanite and only has those bourgeois values.

Did you read the Bloomberg piece about Jared I put up yesterday?

Those Fifth Avenue cats only know one mode; win no matter what.

[Fife]

I wouldn't bind you to my fate tho, if push came to shove, I'd tell you to cut the rope, ain't no sense in us both going, low man frees the high man, to the summit and beyond, mission over men.

It's funny, I took my little brother to see that movie when he was in short pants, he was so scared he was hiding his face in his shirt. That opening scene, that was about it for him, he wanted to leave, I said hell no, this movie looks good already, sit the fuck down.

Lot of Hollywood jazz going on here, right, ape?

I mean, that anchor isn't going to just creep out of the rock like that. Either it's good to go or instantly gives out: if my physics are right.

Of course I'm scared of heights, and it would take a big ass bear or something to get me that high off the ground, so what do I know about it?