The pitchforks are coming... for us plutocrats

[Martin Hash]

The Left has a lot of envious & resentful members because their ideology would benefit those people, either materially or intellectually. HOWEVER, the basis of Collectivism, which is the essence of The Left, can be found in the same religion you're spouting. Most of The Left simply don't believe in liberty, period, it has NOTHING to do with negative base motivations. I debate Europeans all the time: they disdain liberty & can't imagine why Americans like it? They are NOT filled with envy, spite & resentment.

If you assign motives that aren't there but the problem is real, then when your attribution is proved wrong, people assume all your claims are wrong.

[Speaker to Animals]

They have no motives, Martin. It's just jealousy and hate. The rest of it is rationalization.

Their ideology, such as it is, amounts to nothing short of stealing from people they don't like to give to themselves. I.e. theft. Their motive, if you want to call it that, is base covetousness.

If they wanted to actually fix shit, they would attack the bureaucracy that destroys lives to perpetuate itself. In dealing with the economic decline of the middle class, instead of trying to steal from one group they openly hate to give to some other group they label victims, they would seek to fix the problems that led to that decline.

They are far more interested in taking other peoples' shit than actually trying to fix the problems that Americans face across this country. If you want to save the middle class: lock down the borders and enforce immigration laws; back out of job offshoring deals; impose tariffs on corporations that attempt to offshore production of American goods to foreign nations in order to exploit the poor there. One could go on, but one thing you will find in every case is that they OPPOSE doing those things.

Think back on all the time you have discussed solutions with these people. Can you think of a single time their solution didn't involve theft or coercion? Can you think of a single time that their solution wasn't predicated on targeting what they label as an "oppressor" group for the benefit of what they label a "victim" group?

We can name the ideologies they spout to justify this shit all day, but at the end of that day, it's just names and they don't really matter. This is just a cancer that can afflict a civilization. We saw it before. We probably will see it again if we survive it this time.

This is not to say there can't be a legitimate "left", but again, I think framing this in terms of left and right is part of the problem in that it provides an unjustifiable basis for this cancer. After all, somebody can say "well, the right needs some kind of balancing force". EVERY ideology and faction needs some balancing force. It's not left or right. Some of these ideologies are dangerous and should be opposed even in an open society. Because I am telling you right now.. if they ever gain absolute control, their idea of "opposing" you will entail violence, gulags, guillotines, or whatever else they think of next.

THIS. IS. CANCER.

[adwinistrator]

I feel like most comparisons to the Gracchi brothers don't really translate well. While the method of uniting the poor behind their cause is not unique to them, the specific crisis they were trying to solve were somewhat unique to Rome in their time.

In regards to the original article posted, and the discussion on revolution in America, I feel the #1 reason it would never be successful even if there was an uprising, is the vast amount of land and how dispersed the population is across it. 90% of those in a revolution wouldn't be able to travel to DC, or any other major city that could have a national impact.

Compared to countries in Europe will less land and higher population density, it just doesn't seem logistically feasible.

[Speaker to Animals]

I didn't claim they were same circumstances. What I claimed was that there exists a tendency within a civilization towards decay and degeneracy. We currently call that the "left". The rationalization they use to justify this was once called marxism, but they don't like that label now for some strange reason.

But it's really the same tendency you can see in the French Revolution as well.

What we end up doing is confronting it from the basis of all our individual ideologies and values. For instance, Fife might talk a good game about individual liberty, positive rights, free markets, yada yada. I might talk about public morals and degeneracy, etc. But what we sort of do when engage it in this way is (1) legitimize it as an actual ideology (as if they operate from first principles and then come to these demands as valid conclusions instead of demand these things out of base desire and rationalize an ideology to justify it after the fact), and (2) we avoid addressing the fact that we are not dealing with a rational or coherent set of principles.

Don't take what I say here as some condemnation of the people, though many of them I definitely do not like like one bit. I do see this as a kind of disease in the Dawkins sense of memes infecting minds and spreading. This kind of mind rot can accelerate when economic, political, and social conditions result in perceived adversities on the part of large segments of the population. It's almost always a bottom-up phenomenon, but it almost always is co-opted by men in the elite classes to wage internecine conflict on their peers, as we have seen over and over and over.

Seriously ask yourself if these people lighting our streets on fire because they don't like the outcome of democracy have some unifying set of principles and act out from those principles in a set of steps that logically follow from one another. Or are they just throwing tantrums and demanding the world ascent to their desires because.. whatever?

I hate to use this left-right language right now, but for the sake of argument, I want to make clear that I do not think all the people on the left are like this. I just think a lot of them are right now. Nor does this mean there can exist no legitimate ideologies on the "left". But, again, I think framing everything in a left-right paradigm might harm us more than help us here.

[Martin Hash]

They do it because the squeaky wheel gets greased. Good strategy that works cross-spectrum; think Religious Right.

[adwinistrator]

I didn't claim they were same circumstances. What I claimed was that there exists a tendency within a civilization towards decay and degeneracy.

Really solid post overall, I'll respond more thoroughly when I'm at my PC. Just wanted to say I was not referring to you, or any specific users, reference to the Gracchi's, just speaking to the general use of them as analogies of modern times. Lots of people try to use them to make their case for socialist/populist causes, but ignore the agendas they wouldn't agree with, like increasing the size of the military.

[Speaker to Animals]

I should also add, that when this happens, it's society-wide. It's not just the "left" affected by the moral rot either. In fact, it's the moral decline of the elites that leads to the social and political disruptions that can trigger revolution. The French aristocracy before the revolution were pretty horrible people who also were motivated by base desire and covetousness. The Russian aristocracy was little better, and their treatment of the Russian peasants was totally inhuman in its depravity.

Here in America today, the elites are incredibly morally degenerate. Consider the fact that Donald Trump of all people was the "moral" alternative to the corrupt and criminal Hillary Clinton and the largest criminal corruption racket in history.

The difference is that the elites are smaller in number and the "left" will just ascribe to their motive greed instead of recognizing that this avarice stems from the same covetousness that drives most of left politics as well.

I think it was in The Wire where a character opined that the problem with our economy is that everybody has their hands in somebody else's pockets to make a buck instead of actually making things. That's how this kind of decay plays out with the elites. Wall Street became our nation's primary industry, and they don't produce a damned thing. They scam people and take from others. It's wealth redistribution rather than wealth creation.

But when people who suffer from the same moral failings (which, let's be honest, is most of us today to some degree) attempt to confront this fact, their solutions tend to be along the same lines: take from those guys and give it to us. If you suggest we actually undo the incentives and systems that lead to this behavior so that Americans can all go back to work and start making shit again, innovating, and building their own wealth, a lot of them will rebuke your idea. Personally, I think they rebuke it because they are committed to taking from those guys they think took from them. It's for the same reason Wall Street and corporate America fought for so long against economic nationalism and efforts to reign in these unpopular trade deals. Economic nationalism will be good for American corporations too, but they will have to make shit again. They will have to innovate and compete. It's not a race to the bottom where they make money by taking it from somebody else any longer.

Maybe we all should think about why we got here. Few of us are innocent.

[skankhunt42]

They have no motives, Martin. It's just jealousy and hate. The rest of it is rationalization.

Their ideology, such as it is, amounts to nothing short of stealing from people they don't like to give to themselves. I.e. theft. Their motive, if you want to call it that, is base covetousness.

If they wanted to actually fix shit, they would attack the bureaucracy that destroys lives to perpetuate itself. In dealing with the economic decline of the middle class, instead of trying to steal from one group they openly hate to give to some other group they label victims, they would seek to fix the problems that led to that decline.

They are far more interested in taking other peoples' shit than actually trying to fix the problems that Americans face across this country. If you want to save the middle class: lock down the borders and enforce immigration laws; back out of job offshoring deals; impose tariffs on corporations that attempt to offshore production of American goods to foreign nations in order to exploit the poor there. One could go on, but one thing you will find in every case is that they OPPOSE doing those things.

Think back on all the time you have discussed solutions with these people. Can you think of a single time their solution didn't involve theft or coercion? Can you think of a single time that their solution wasn't predicated on targeting what they label as an "oppressor" group for the benefit of what they label a "victim" group?

We can name the ideologies they spout to justify this shit all day, but at the end of that day, it's just names and they don't really matter. This is just a cancer that can afflict a civilization. We saw it before. We probably will see it again if we survive it this time.

This is not to say there can't be a legitimate "left", but again, I think framing this in terms of left and right is part of the problem in that it provides an unjustifiable basis for this cancer. After all, somebody can say "well, the right needs some kind of balancing force". EVERY ideology and faction needs some balancing force. It's not left or right. Some of these ideologies are dangerous and should be opposed even in an open society. Because I am telling you right now.. if they ever gain absolute control, their idea of "opposing" you will entail violence, gulags, guillotines, or whatever else they think of next.

THIS. IS. CANCER.

Could not agree more!

[Ex-California]

double post

[Ex-California]

Lol, no.

Are you a rich oligarch or a rank and file citizen?

Populism benefits you. Being against it is the same as the retards who are mad Trump says America First

That's not what I am talking about.

There exists a tendency within a civilization towards decay, sort of akin to cancer in an individual organism. Guys like the Gracchi brothers represented an iteration of that cancer in antiquity.

This is what I mean by saying that a lot of what we call "left" (and I think the entire idea of there being a spectrum is bullshit, but I use the words because they are so commonly understood) really amounts to hatred and jealousy. What Gracchi brothers wanted to do was to take from others to redistribute amongst themselves. They argued that one group of Roman citizens was the oppressive enemy that had to be destroyed.

Catalina was even more overt about it.

While we often compare Trump to Crassus in terms of background, he really is much more like an Augustus Caesar in terms of policy with respect to this dynamic. Augustus rejected the class warfare and simply endeavored to put the Roman people first wherever possible. For example, his reforms targeted the bloated Roman bureaucracy that was dominated by corrupt insiders. He completely purged it and streamlined it. He advanced building projects to modernize the Roman infrastructure. His moral reforms were meant to stymie the degeneracy that had descended upon the Roman people.

He did what he did for the people to a large extent, but he coupled that with a return to traditional Roman values and stamping out the moral decline that was the topic of much discussion in the years preceding the civil wars. You can read Cicero's accounts of these discussions as well. Much of what they faced is what we face today.

This idea that the left is for the "people" and the right is for the "oligarchs" is utter nonsense promulgated by the far left. It's a bogus narrative like pretty much all the other lies they spread. The so-called left is, and always has been, for moral degeneracy and social rot, all fueled by an intense hatred for those who have more wealth, power, social connections, whatever. It's the result of jealousy and covetousness at the the social level.

Hence why the moral foundation of our current iteration of western civilization includes:

“I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”
This commandment forbids idolatry, the worship of false gods and goddesses, and it excludes polytheism, the belief in many gods, insisting instead on monotheism, the belief in one God. This commandment forbids making golden calves, building temples to Isis, and worshipping statues of Caesar, for example.

“Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”
The faithful are required to honor the name of God. It makes sense that if you’re to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, then you’re naturally to respect the name of God with equal passion and vigor.

“Honor thy father and mother.”
This commandment obliges the faithful to show respect for their parents — as children and adults. Children must obey their parents, and adults must respect and see to the care of their parents, when they become old and infirm.

“Thou shalt not kill.”
The better translation from the Hebrew would be “Thou shalt not murder” — a subtle distinction but an important one to the Church. Killing an innocent person is considered murder. Killing an unjust aggressor to preserve your own life is still killing, but it isn’t considered murder or immoral.

“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
The sixth and ninth commandments honor human sexuality. This commandment forbids the actual, physical act of having immoral sexual activity, specifically adultery, which is sex with someone else’s spouse or a spouse cheating on their partner. This commandment also includes fornication, which is sex between unmarried people, prostitution, pornography, homosexual activity, masturbation, group sex, rape, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, and necrophilia.

“Thou shalt not steal.”
The seventh and tenth commandments focus on respecting and honoring the possessions of others. This commandment forbids the act of taking someone else’s property. The Catholic Church believes that this commandment also denounces cheating people of their money or property, depriving workers of their just wage, or not giving employers a full day’s work for a full day’s pay. Embezzlement, fraud, tax evasion, and vandalism are all considered extensions of violations of the Seventh Commandment.

“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
The Eighth Commandment condemns lying. Because God is regarded as the author of all truth, the Church believes that humans are obligated to honor the truth. The most obvious way to fulfill this commandment is not to lie — intentionally deceive another by speaking a falsehood. So a good Catholic is who you want to buy a used car from.

“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
The Ninth Commandment forbids the intentional desire and longing for immoral sexuality. To sin in the heart, Jesus says, is to lust after a woman or a man in your heart with the desire and will to have immoral sex with them. Just as human life is a gift from God and needs to be respected, defended, and protected, so, too, is human sexuality. Catholicism regards human sexuality as a divine gift, so it’s considered sacred in the proper context — marriage.

“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”
The Tenth Commandment forbids the wanting to or taking someone else’s property. Along with the Seventh Commandment, this commandment condemns theft and the feelings of envy, greed, and jealousy in reaction to what other people have.

The so-called left opposes ALL OF THEM.

If you were to codify the Roman moral system in those days, the Gracchi brothers, I am certain, opposed them all. This is not a valid ideology. This is not a valid set of ideals. These people will rationalize what they are doing, and some of them can write some good polemic in defense of it, but fundamentally, we are talking about a kind of mind rot that, at the social level, is like a social cancer that will inevitably destroy a civilization if not treated.


We need a "left" more like Augustus and a hell of a lot less like Gracchi Brothers.

Great post. I get what you're saying now and I agree

We need a :cheers: emoticon

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