Net Neutrality

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Net Neutrality

Post by Speaker to Animals » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:23 pm

The Conservative wrote:https://beinglibertarian.com/net-neutra ... g-neutral/
As streaming services such as Netflix, YouTube, and Google have become more prevalent in recent years, ISPs decided to charge them more for bandwidth than smaller companies, seeing as how they now used up a much larger portion of the providers’ finite supply. Like with most things, those who cost more are usually charged more than those who don’t. For example, a compact car driving down a toll road pays less than an 18-wheeler due to the extra wear and tear caused on the road. The truck would obviously benefit from a mandate requiring that everyone pay the same tolls, where the car would be penalized from the redistributed costs. In the case for net neutrality, the 18-wheeler is the large streaming entities, and they want their bandwidth cost spread around to everyone else using the internet, regardless of how much you use. Hence why net neutrality’s most prominent advocates are Google, Netflix and Microsoft, and its opponents include Comcast, Time Warner and AT&T.

That is the stupidest argument I have seen in several days.

tue4t
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Re: Net Neutrality

Post by tue4t » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:55 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:
The Conservative wrote:https://beinglibertarian.com/net-neutra ... g-neutral/
As streaming services such as Netflix, YouTube, and Google have become more prevalent in recent years, ISPs decided to charge them more for bandwidth than smaller companies, seeing as how they now used up a much larger portion of the providers’ finite supply. Like with most things, those who cost more are usually charged more than those who don’t. For example, a compact car driving down a toll road pays less than an 18-wheeler due to the extra wear and tear caused on the road. The truck would obviously benefit from a mandate requiring that everyone pay the same tolls, where the car would be penalized from the redistributed costs. In the case for net neutrality, the 18-wheeler is the large streaming entities, and they want their bandwidth cost spread around to everyone else using the internet, regardless of how much you use. Hence why net neutrality’s most prominent advocates are Google, Netflix and Microsoft, and its opponents include Comcast, Time Warner and AT&T.

That is the stupidest argument I have seen in several days.
It just so happens to be true. What triggered this whole broohaha in the first place was consumers complaining about slow connections to netflix during peak and the ISP's asking netflix to pay them to upgrade their connections. Whether the ISP uses that money to expand their capacity or simply pockets it is an issue rooted in monopoly rights, not net neutrality. NN makes no directive about investments/hard throttling so to speak. ISP's can still throttle by providing inadequate infrastructure, they just have to throttle everyone at the same time.

Content provider ===pipeline=== end consumer

pipeline is built and owned by the ISP having $x costs. Maintenance, WACC, upgrades, overhead etc. etc. ISP charges end consumers and content providers to use its pipe.

Content providers also have $costs and pay $interchange tolls to pass their data through the ISP. costs + tolls

End consumer pays $internet bill and $content subscription to content providers. internet bill + content subscription

ISP revenue = tolls + internet bills. This funding mix must total to greater than the $x cost required to run the pipeline.

ISP can shift their funding mix from exclusively internet bills all the way to exclusively interchange tolls and vice versa. As they do this, end consumers see diverging costs because not everyone pays the same amount in content subscription. Internet bills are generally usage indiscriminate while content subscriptions and usage discriminate in relation to prices.

Let us assume the ISP chooses to increase its funding mix towards interchange tolls against content providers to fund increasing pipeline costs driven by increasing demand for pipe space. Consumers will see the price of content subscriptions increase relative to their internet bills. Consumers without content subscriptions win, while those with content subscriptions lose.

When you pass net neutrality and disallow the ISP from doing this, consumers without content subscriptions effectively subsidise those with content subscriptions. Content providers want this because the ISP cannot levy them specifically, the costs must be spread to everyone.
Last edited by tue4t on Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Net Neutrality

Post by Speaker to Animals » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:56 pm

It's the stupidest argument I have seen in days and you just tried to defend it.

News flash: people already paid for the bandwidth. When I bought my broadband, I paid for X amount of bandwidth per month. Charging YouTube extra for bandwidth I already paid for is fucking jacked.

We pay for a certain amount of data each month. It doesn't matter what kind of TCP/IP packets we send and receive.

Fuck democracy. Seriously. People are too stupid for it.

tue4t
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Re: Net Neutrality

Post by tue4t » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:06 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:It's the stupidest argument I have seen in days and you just tried to defend it.

News flash: people already paid for the bandwidth. When I bought my broadband, I paid for X amount of bandwidth per month. Charging YouTube extra for bandwidth I already paid for is fucking jacked.

We pay for a certain amount of data each month. It doesn't matter what kind of TCP/IP packets we send and receive.

Fuck democracy. Seriously. People are too stupid for it.
No, you're not separating out the issues nor understanding how ISP's fund their business. There are two at play here. Monopoly exploitation and price neutrality/net neutrality or whatever you want to call it.

You pay your ISP for bandwidth at whatever reduced price you do because your ISP has managed to also charge content providers a fee. Say it costs $100 to run the pipe. I can split it 50/50 where consumers pay $50 and content providers pay $50. The price you see on your bill is only half the cost of that bandwidth.

Or I can price discriminate against content providers and split it 20/100 where consumers only pay $20 for the same amount of bandwidth at the cost of higher content subscriptions.

The idea of actual price extortion e.g. I already have enough capacity but I say to youtube, hey pay me extra or I'll throttle you, stems from literal infrastructure monopoly rights granted by the state. Youtube cannot say fuck you i'm going with your competitor. Net neutrality philosophically does not stop the ISP's from practicing price extortion - they can still do it just they have to do it to everyone indiscriminately.

Net neutrality as an actual piece of legislation is even more interesting. it's actually legal under NN to offer "specialised" services where you charge youtube extra and charge the consumer less, but the plan cannot be marketed as universal access or whatever.

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Net Neutrality

Post by Speaker to Animals » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:12 pm

I have a masters degree in computer science and more than a decade of software engineering experience in wireless communication networks. I understand how it works.


It's a fucking retarded argument. The bandwidth is paid for downstream by the consumer. It doesn't matter what is in a TCP/IP payload. It's just fucking data for fuck sake.

I really am done with democracy. It's not feasible with this level of stupidity.

If a consumer is using too much data, then charge him for the extra bandwidth or throttle him. There's no valid argument to what these monopolistic network companies want to do.

tue4t
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Re: Net Neutrality

Post by tue4t » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:18 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:I have a masters degree in computer science and more than a decade of software engineering experience in wireless communication networks. I understand how it works.


It's a fucking retarded argument. The bandwidth is paid for downstream by the consumer. It doesn't matter what is in a TCP/IP payload. It's just fucking data for fuck sake.

I really am done with democracy. It's not feasible with this level of stupidity.
I'm not saying you don't understand how networks work. I'm saying you don't understand how finance works.

Yes, data is just data and an engineer could be forgiven for thinking that must necessarily translate to same prices for each packet.

Example. I sell software licenses. Each bit of the software is the same. I may however charge businesses a business price and consumers a consumer price. Why? Because businesses can and will pay more whereas consumers won't. The net effect is a subsidy in favour of consumers.

You seem a bit emotional right now, so i'll forgive you for adhomming me as stupid. Though I would be careful about reaching for the stupid card so early without fully comprehending what is being told to you. Doing that has a tendency to end up reflecting the stupid card back on yourself, and by your own doing.

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Xenophon
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Re: Net Neutrality

Post by Xenophon » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:22 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:I have a masters degree in computer science and more than a decade of software engineering experience in wireless communication networks. I understand how it works.


It's a fucking retarded argument. The bandwidth is paid for downstream by the consumer. It doesn't matter what is in a TCP/IP payload. It's just fucking data for fuck sake.

I really am done with democracy. It's not feasible with this level of stupidity.

If a consumer is using too much data, then charge him for the extra bandwidth or throttle him. There's no valid argument to what these monopolistic network companies want to do.
Democracy has become a waste of time, given the change in demographics.

tue4t
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Re: Net Neutrality

Post by tue4t » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:33 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote: If a consumer is using too much data, then charge him for the extra bandwidth or throttle him. There's no valid argument to what these monopolistic network companies want to do.
I agree, the ISP's should not have riled up silicon valley and should instead have introduced data caps and charged the unsuspecting customer more. Funny how that works, the result is the same as the doomsday scenario NN advocates espouse. The only difference being there's no moral colouring to it being pushed by big money.

Consumers lose, but I the ISP escape the hole in in the road ahead that might sink me (nationalisation). This has always been a battle between silicon valley and the ISP's about who pays what for content delivery. You don't fuck with the profitability models of people in money, or atleast you do so planning out 10 steps ahead.

This has been a chess game from the start. The ISP's made the wrong move and silicon valley counter attacked using their position as content curators and distributors to win the PR battle in an absolute landslide using all the same typical activist language, imagery, value hierarchy, moral panic doomsday etc. that ironically also underpins the popularity of social justice. I'm not denying that NN lobbyist groups did an absolutely stellar job. Bravo to them in all genuine respect.

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Fife
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Re: Net Neutrality

Post by Fife » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:01 pm

Xenophon wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:I have a masters degree in computer science and more than a decade of software engineering experience in wireless communication networks. I understand how it works.


It's a fucking retarded argument. The bandwidth is paid for downstream by the consumer. It doesn't matter what is in a TCP/IP payload. It's just fucking data for fuck sake.

I really am done with democracy. It's not feasible with this level of stupidity.

If a consumer is using too much data, then charge him for the extra bandwidth or throttle him. There's no valid argument to what these monopolistic network companies want to do.
Democracy has become a waste of time, given the change in demographics.
Democracy isn't just a waste of time. It that is all it were, we would blow past it in a jiffy.

IRL, Democracy is the second-worst device dreamed up by humans that has found an IRL so far. IMNSHO

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The Conservative
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Re: Net Neutrality

Post by The Conservative » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:15 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:It's the stupidest argument I have seen in days and you just tried to defend it.

News flash: people already paid for the bandwidth. When I bought my broadband, I paid for X amount of bandwidth per month. Charging YouTube extra for bandwidth I already paid for is fucking jacked.

We pay for a certain amount of data each month. It doesn't matter what kind of TCP/IP packets we send and receive.

Fuck democracy. Seriously. People are too stupid for it.
You paid for speed, not bandwidth.
#NotOneRedCent