Cake Maker told to pay 130K to gay coupe for not making a cake for them.

User avatar
de officiis
Posts: 2528
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:09 am

Re: Cake Maker told to pay 130K to gay coupe for not making a cake for them.

Post by de officiis » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:55 am

Here is a link to the opinion if anyone wants to read it. I guess their next step would be to appeal to the Oregon Supreme Court, since this was an intermediate appellate court ruling. If they lose there, then the next step would be the Writ of Certiorari to the SCOTUS.

Here is the key passage of the 1989 SCOTUS opinion (Employment Division v. Smith) that the Oregon court cited as the basis for ruling against the Kleins on the 1st Amendment argument. I've removed most of the case citations to make it more accessible. Smith was a split ruling and Congress responded to it by passing the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The Oregon court didn't buy the Kleins' argument that the Oregon statute was passed to target the Christian religion.
The Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, which has been made applicable to the States by incorporation into the Fourteenth Amendment, provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . ." The free exercise of religion means, first and foremost, the right to believe and profess whatever religious doctrine one desires. Thus, the First Amendment obviously excludes all "governmental regulation of religious beliefs as such." The government may not compel affirmation of religious belief, punish the expression of religious doctrines it believes to be false, impose special disabilities on the basis of religious views or religious status, or lend its power to one or the other side in controversies over religious authority or dogma.

But the "exercise of religion" often involves not only belief and profession but the performance of (or abstention from) physical acts: assembling with others for a worship service, participating in sacramental use of bread and wine, proselytizing, abstaining from certain foods or certain modes of transportation. It would be true, we think (though no case of ours has involved the point), that a State would be "prohibiting the free exercise [of religion]" if it sought to ban such acts or abstentions only when they are engaged in for religious reasons, or only because of the religious belief that they display. It would doubtless be unconstitutional, for example, to ban the casting of "statues that are to be used for worship purposes," or to prohibit bowing down before a golden calf.

Respondents in the present case, however, seek to carry the meaning of "prohibiting the free exercise [of religion]" one large step further. They contend that their religious motivation for using peyote places them beyond the reach of a criminal law that is not specifically directed at their religious practice, and that is concededly constitutional as applied to those who use the drugfor other reasons. They assert, in other words, that "prohibiting the free exercise [of religion]" includes requiring any individual to observe a generally applicable law that requires (or forbids) the performance of an act that his religious belief forbids (or requires). As a textual matter, we do not think the words must be given that meaning. It is no more necessary to regard the collection of a general tax, for example, as "prohibiting the free exercise [of religion]" by those citizens who believe support of organized government to be sinful, than it is to regard the same tax as "abridging the freedom . . . of the press" of those publishing companies that must pay the tax as a condition of staying in business. It is a permissible reading of the text, in the one case as in the other, to say that if prohibiting the exercise of religion (or burdening the activity of printing) is not the object of the tax but merely the incidental effect of a generally applicable and otherwise valid provision, the First Amendment has not been offended.

We have never held that an individual's religious beliefs excuse him from compliance with an otherwise valid law prohibiting conduct that the State is free to regulate. On the contrary, the record of more than a century of our free exercise jurisprudence contradicts that proposition. As described succinctly by Justice Frankfurter in Minersville School Dist. Bd. of Ed. v. Gobitis: "Conscientious scruples have not, in the course of the long struggle for religious toleration, relieved the individual from obedience to a general law not aimed at the promotion or restriction of religious beliefs. The mere possession of religious convictions which contradict the relevant concerns of a political society does not relieve the citizen from the discharge of political responsibilities." We first had occasion to assert that principle in Reynolds v. United States, where we rejected the claim that criminal laws against polygamy could not be constitutionally applied to those whose religion commanded the practice. "Laws," we said, "are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, they may with practices. . . . Can a man excuse his practices to the contrary because of his religious belief? To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself."

Subsequent decisions have consistently held that the right of free exercise does not relieve an individual of the obligation to comply with a "valid and neutral law of general applicability on the ground that the law proscribes (or prescribes) conduct that his religion prescribes (or proscribes)." United States v. Lee, 455 U.S. 252, 263, n. 3 (1982) (Stevens, J., concurring in judgment); see Minersville School Dist. Bd. of Ed. v. Gobitis, supra, at 595 (collecting cases). In Prince v. Massachusetts, we held that a mother could be prosecuted under the child labor laws for using her children to dispense literature in the streets, her religious motivation notwithstanding. We found no constitutional infirmity in "excluding [these children] from doing there what no other children may do." In Braunfeld v. Brown, we upheld Sunday-closing laws against the claim that they burdened the religious practices of persons whose religions compelled them to refrain from work on other days. In Gillette v. United States, we sustained the military Selective Service System against the claim that it violated free exercise by conscripting persons who opposed a particular war on religious grounds.

Our most recent decision involving a neutral, generally applicable regulatory law that compelled activity forbidden by an individual's religion was United States v. Lee. There, an Amish employer, on behalf of himself and his employees, sought exemption from collection and payment of Social Security taxes on the ground that the Amish faith prohibited participation in governmental support programs. We rejected the claim that an exemption was constitutionally required. There would be no way, we observed, to distinguish the Amish believer's objection to Social Security taxes from the religious objections that others might have to the collection or use of other taxes. "If, for example, a religious adherent believes war is a sin, and if a certain percentage of the federal budget can be identified as devoted to war-related activities, such individuals would have a similarly valid claim to be exempt from paying that percentage of the income tax. The tax system could not function if denominations were allowed to challenge the tax system because tax payments were spent in a manner that violates their religious belief."
Image

User avatar
clubgop
Posts: 7978
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:47 pm

Re: Cake Maker told to pay 130K to gay coupe for not making a cake for them.

Post by clubgop » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:40 am

Okeefenokee wrote:This feels like Bernie the outsider all over again.

I think you folks are making hype out of nothing.
I have to agree but for different reasons. He is 45 yrs old, 46 in May. He still has about a decade of box office relevance. He takes less physical more dramatic roles he extends that. He gets into politics he fucks that up. Schwarzenegger was a full decade older when he run at the tail end of his box office viability. As for the Democrats, double no, look at the Rock's career he has joined successful bankable franchises and became the most charismatic. WWE, Hercules, Mummy, Fast and furious. The Dems are a dumpster fire right now.

This is the 2020 Democrat presidential candidate lineup.

Image

There is no way, you jump in the middle of that especially when they are still playing six degrees of Harvey Weinstein.

User avatar
StCapps
Posts: 16879
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:59 am
Location: Hamilton, Ontario

Re: Cake Maker told to pay 130K to gay coupe for not making a cake for them.

Post by StCapps » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:45 am

clubgop wrote:I have to agree but for different reasons. He is 45 yrs old, 46 in May. He still has about a decade of box office relevance. He takes less physical more dramatic roles he extends that. He gets into politics he fucks that up. Schwarzenegger was a full decade older when he run at the tail end of his box office viability. As for the Democrats, double no, look at the Rock's career he has joined successful bankable franchises and became the most charismatic. WWE, Hercules, Mummy, Fast and furious. The Dems are a dumpster fire right now.

This is the 2020 Democrat presidential candidate lineup.

Image

There is no way, you jump in the middle of that especially when they are still playing six degrees of Harvey Weinstein.
True, The Rock would be smart to wait until at least 2024, I'm just saying, if he ran, he'd win, even if he didn't wait for optimal timing. He's the Democrats only hope of taking the White House back in 2020, but pretty sure he's going to keep his powder dry a while longer, unless he gets sick of being a huge box office draw, which seems unlikely.
*yip*

Okeefenokee
Posts: 12950
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:27 pm
Location: The Great Place

Re: Cake Maker told to pay 130K to gay coupe for not making a cake for them.

Post by Okeefenokee » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:24 am

Maybe it's because I don't watch shitty movies, but I have no idea why so many of you think he's some kind of killer candidate.

Has the guy ever made a political statement in his life? If being a celebrity was enough to get elected we'd have seen John Stewart or Stephen Colbert make a legitimate run, but just being a celebrity isn't enough.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.

viewtopic.php?p=60751#p60751

Viktorthepirate
Posts: 705
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:24 pm

Re: Cake Maker told to pay 130K to gay coupe for not making a cake for them.

Post by Viktorthepirate » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:26 am

Okeefenokee wrote:Maybe it's because I don't watch shitty movies, but I have no idea why so many of you think he's some kind of killer candidate.

Has the guy ever made a political statement in his life? If being a celebrity was enough to get elected we'd have seen John Stewart or Stephen Colbert make a legitimate run, but just being a celebrity isn't enough.
Probably because the presidency is a popularity contest and people like him.

If he got elected it would make that truth obvious.

Kind of shows how shitty our electorate is.

User avatar
Speaker to Animals
Posts: 38685
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:59 pm

Re: Cake Maker told to pay 130K to gay coupe for not making a cake for them.

Post by Speaker to Animals » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:33 am

Okeefenokee wrote:Maybe it's because I don't watch shitty movies, but I have no idea why so many of you think he's some kind of killer candidate.

Has the guy ever made a political statement in his life? If being a celebrity was enough to get elected we'd have seen John Stewart or Stephen Colbert make a legitimate run, but just being a celebrity isn't enough.

He's wildly popular. That guy is probably the most-liked person in America right now. Seriously.

Okeefenokee
Posts: 12950
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:27 pm
Location: The Great Place

Re: Cake Maker told to pay 130K to gay coupe for not making a cake for them.

Post by Okeefenokee » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:44 am

Speaker to Animals wrote:
Okeefenokee wrote:Maybe it's because I don't watch shitty movies, but I have no idea why so many of you think he's some kind of killer candidate.

Has the guy ever made a political statement in his life? If being a celebrity was enough to get elected we'd have seen John Stewart or Stephen Colbert make a legitimate run, but just being a celebrity isn't enough.

He's wildly popular. That guy is probably the most-liked person in America right now. Seriously.
News to me if it's true. I haven't seen any signs around here that he's even really relevant. I'm not knocking him, but he's a non-entity from what I see.

Plus, doesn't matter how popular he is when he's never made a political statement in his life, once he runs as a democrat he's tarnished forever. There's no way to run for them and not be for shit the nation is rejecting like open borders, family dissolution, racism, bigger government, higher taxes, war with russia etc.

Mr. Rodgers couldn't win with that platform and he's way more popular than some wrestler.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.

viewtopic.php?p=60751#p60751

User avatar
Speaker to Animals
Posts: 38685
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:59 pm

Re: Cake Maker told to pay 130K to gay coupe for not making a cake for them.

Post by Speaker to Animals » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:46 am

Okeefenokee wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:
Okeefenokee wrote:Maybe it's because I don't watch shitty movies, but I have no idea why so many of you think he's some kind of killer candidate.

Has the guy ever made a political statement in his life? If being a celebrity was enough to get elected we'd have seen John Stewart or Stephen Colbert make a legitimate run, but just being a celebrity isn't enough.

He's wildly popular. That guy is probably the most-liked person in America right now. Seriously.
News to me if it's true. I haven't seen any signs around here that he's even really relevant. I'm not knocking him, but he's a non-entity from what I see.

Plus, doesn't matter how popular he is when he's never made a political statement in his life, once he runs as a democrat he's tarnished forever. There's no way to run for them and not be for shit the nation is rejecting like open borders, family dissolution, racism, bigger government, higher taxes, war with russia etc.

Mr. Rodgers couldn't win with that platform and he's way more popular than some wrestler.

He makes political statements all the time. He's kind of a center-right kind of independent. He's not a Trump fan.

He could still fuck it up by saying stupid shit or somebody can find some skeleton in the closet. But right here and now, Johnson would crush pretty much any opponent.

Smitty-48
Posts: 36399
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Cake Maker told to pay 130K to gay coupe for not making a cake for them.

Post by Smitty-48 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:48 am

It's an age of vacuous superficial celebrity candidates, hyperpolarization is the perfect conditions for that, for all his pretense Obama was a vacuous celebrity candidate too, a fiction created by Hollywood and Wall Street.

President Rock would simply be Obama 2.0

Throw enough media hype and corporate money at a celebrity, and it's well within reach.
Last edited by Smitty-48 on Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nec Aspera Terrent

User avatar
Speaker to Animals
Posts: 38685
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:59 pm

Re: Cake Maker told to pay 130K to gay coupe for not making a cake for them.

Post by Speaker to Animals » Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:50 am

Seriously. Why couldn't Johnson do this? Neither Obama or Trump had qualifications for that office. Both are fake personalities. Right now, Johnson has this if he wants it. He could still fuck up, but it's his race to lose.

Trump better actually deliver on his promises and stop pandering to the merchant fucks.