Cultural Effects of Loss of Labor

[TheReal_ND]

Hard work is good, Defaming hard work because it doesn't always make you rich is toxic. I would rather work hard and be content with that fact than worry about who is Jewing who.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Hard work is only as good as its results. Pointless hard work is just that, pointless. If I like the results, I will work hard, if I don't, I'm not going to lose any sleep over a lost opportunity to waste time and energy. I am certainly not going to feel guilty about not wanting to carry some one else's water, be he Jew or goy.

[SuburbanFarmer]

That's not what the Protestant work ethic is. My understanding of it is that God provides for those that provide and to be charitable. There is no institutionalized taxation involved other than the tithe which was never emphasized to any degree that the Church of Rome promoted. Protestantism was in general a rebellion against the Church of Rome that you seem to hate for their tithes which were law in places like France during their revolution.

You just tied the Protestant work ethic to a tithe, and then said they rebelled against the tithe... Go sit in the corner.

Hanarchy has it pretty nailed. The Protestant idea was that work for its own sake is righteous, even if it's for nothing. You'll see appeals to this from time to time, but it's mostly died out. The current paradigm is more "fuck you, pay me", and isn't very compatible.

[Speaker to Animals]

I'd say that was more of a Puritan ideal. It's why yankee culture is so industrious (though, that ethic seems to be on the decline since they adopted their new religion).

In any case, Puritans actually thought they would go to Hell for not working enough.

[atanamis]

I'd say that was more of a Puritan ideal. It's why yankee culture is so industrious (though, that ethic seems to be on the decline since they adopted their new religion).
In any case, Puritans actually thought they would go to Hell for not working enough.

It varied. At the most lenient they thought it was an indicator of who was truly saved. It wasn't what saved you, but it was what allowed others around you to know that you WERE saved. So for social purposes there was benefit to being thought of as a hard worker. This belief though has been largely dead and buried for generations. The social value in being thought of as a hard worker though did not. Today though, that too is largely fading. Wealth is admired, and success is desired, but working hard for its own sake is largely scorned. The "smarter, not harder" philosophy has been pervasive. But the fact is that most things ARE hard at some level, even if you go about them smartly. Whether our culture is losing that work ethic is a reasonable question. That said, it is also a question every generation since the Greek philosophers have been asking about their descendants. Sometimes they've been right, and other times they've just been crotchety.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Just to clarify, just about anything worth doing is 'hard.' This does not mean that 'working hard' carries an inherent moral dimension.

[Speaker to Animals]

This does not mean that 'working hard' carries an inherent moral dimension.

I see people making that claim, but I don't see any argument in support of the assertion.

Refusing to work when you can work means you demand somebody else sustain you. If everybody decided not to work hard, then society would perish as people starved to death and we lost the rule of law. Obviously some percentage of the population has to work hard at the very least, and to place yourself above hard work -- it seems to me -- constitutes the immoral act of stealing. It is to say you are above having to conduct hard labor, and it should be somebody else's job to do that for you. Thus you wish to steal his labor for your own gain, even if he does not consent, which is kind of what has been happening in the modern welfare state.

The analog to this is a soldier who refuses to carry his own water (which actually is really heavy on long marches) and decides somebody else should carry it for him. It wouldn't surprise me if such a soldier was met with lashes, which doesn't happen for capricious cause.

The Puritans took this WAY too far, but they did have a point here.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

I would buy the idea that there is a moral dimension to making someone else work for me... not that labor is inherently moral.

The fact that we assume that some one who isn't working hard enough according to some rather arbitrary metric means they are living on the dole is baked into the assumptions about work ethic.

I do not work hard at things I do not care about. It is a point of pride. I also am not on any dole. In fact, I am certainly a net contributor to society, which doesn't bother me at all, because, once again, I do not work very hard at things I do not care about.

[Speaker to Animals]

I would buy the idea that there is a moral dimension to making someone else work for me... not that labor is inherently moral.

The fact that we assume that some one who isn't working hard enough according to some rather arbitrary metric means they are living on the dole is baked into the assumptions about work ethic.

I do not work hard at things I do not care about. It is a point of pride. I also am not on any dole. In fact, I am certainly a net contributor to society, which doesn't bother me at all, because, once again, I do not work very hard at things I do not care about.

I readily admit that the work ethic, as it once existed, cannot really apply today since we don't even have enough jobs for everybody due to technological innovations and economic efficiency gains. I don't agree with that. But neither do I agree with the assertions by some that they are above hard work.

People who don't perform hard work are living on the sweat and pain of others. Somebody else carries their water. We ought to be appreciative of that fact.

It's not just every day hard working jobs either. It's the police, fireman, military, ER staff, and so on. I see a lot of people openly scoffing at the idea of serving society, while demanding somebody else serve them. Somebody attacks America; "fuck you, fighting is somebody else's job". Well, if enough people adopt that thinking, then those folks will get what they deserve in this life (what is left of it for them). Hopefully it will just come in the form of a military take-over of the government rather than conquest.

[Mercury]

I would buy the idea that there is a moral dimension to making someone else work for me... not that labor is inherently moral.

The fact that we assume that some one who isn't working hard enough according to some rather arbitrary metric means they are living on the dole is baked into the assumptions about work ethic.

I do not work hard at things I do not care about. It is a point of pride. I also am not on any dole. In fact, I am certainly a net contributor to society, which doesn't bother me at all, because, once again, I do not work very hard at things I do not care about.

It's not so much a moral issue as a "what happens to society?" issue. It can't be good to have a significant portion of a populace unable/unwilling to perform unfulfilling or arduous tasks.

Oh well, Morlocks gotta eat too.