The Right and the Left need each other - debate

[clubgop]

Since the fuck when? Who is opposing Mike Rowe calling him a right nut job? It isnt conservatives. Who jumped in Marco Rubio's chili when he said pursuing an education in welding is more lucrative than that philosophy degree? It wasnt conservatives. When Ashton Kutcher, of all people, accepted an award and preached about hard work and perseverance who praised that message? Who chastised it? The former was conservatives, the latter was not.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying liberals are more conservative than neocons. I'm saying neocons are populists and current populism isn't traditional conservatism.

Who is a neocon? We were starting to get a handle on this but now we seem to be sliding back to it mean "Republican I don't like." You might mean Alt-right or even paleoconservative which is the opposite of neo-.

[Smitty-48]

Left and right isn't so black and white to me, and then I read clubby and smitty and you here, and I wonder if maybe it is black and white, in a purely practical sense.

Time enough for us to quibble amongst ourselves, when we are through the breach and over the enemy's ramparts, the forlorn hope, is no place to stop, for a philosophical discussion.

[MilSpecs]

Umm what? Voting for my interest means I feel I'm entitled to something? Where did you get that from what I wrote? As for illegal immigrants they can go back and try to come in the right way. What makes them entitled to breaking the law? Do you feel entitled to have them break the law?

Disclaimer: our and you are not specific in this post.

But look at how you phrase it: our factories. 1) they're not ours, and 2) the entire mindset of a factory job as being anything other than temporary. This is how we got to where we are. We stopped dreaming the American dream and we stopped wanting it for our children. And it's both liberal and conservative alike who want to be comfortable more than anything. Illegal immigrants aspire to more for the next generation than they have, but we don't. We want generations of mediocrity. It is to weep.

I'm actually not pro illegal immigration but I admire their personal vision for generational improvement. It's too bad for us citizens that we didn't regain our ancestors' sense of determination by seeing them brought back by example.

[DrYouth]

Left and right isn't so black and white to me, and then I read clubby and smitty and you here, and I wonder if maybe it is black and white, in a purely practical sense.

Left and right is anything but black and white...
Those on the left and right are both pissed off about factories moving abroad and jobs being lost.
Both are pissed about unaccountable politicians.

The differences are mostly about who we are most concerned about. The right, in general care most about their own group, whatever that is. The left tends to wring their hands about the ones they consider victims. The right tends to put the emphasis on personal responsibility. The left tends to want government to step in and protect.

But every individual is going to differ about these things. Those on the right want the government to step in in certain circumstances. The right cares about certain threatened groups. The left can encourage personal responsibility.

In the end this gets very blurry.

Declaring a scorched earth military operation against the opposing side is a fools errand.
Smitty and Clubby like black and white.
I mean it is of course appealing to see it that way.

[Smitty-48]

Tokyo Rose gonna chirp, who knew? "You gonna die, GI, the Statue of Liberty ist Kaput!"

Steady in the ranks there, stand-by for the forlorn hope, through the breach and over the ramparts, to the lampposts with Tokyo Rose, fetch the rope.

[MilSpecs]

Who is a neocon? We were starting to get a handle on this but now we seem to be sliding back to it mean "Republican I don't like." You might mean Alt-right or even paleoconservative which is the opposite of neo-.

Nontraditional conservatives - loose definition of socially conservative outwardly, proclaiming fiscal conservatism but picking and choosing who for. It's not a good definition. I don't know what a paleoconservative is. Definitely not alt-right - that's just current slang for white supremacist. If you have a good source for good definitions of current conservative definitions I'll go there.

[TheReal_ND]

Umm what? Voting for my interest means I feel I'm entitled to something? Where did you get that from what I wrote? As for illegal immigrants they can go back and try to come in the right way. What makes them entitled to breaking the law? Do you feel entitled to have them break the law?

Disclaimer: our and you are not specific in this post.

But look at how you phrase it: our factories. 1) they're not ours, and 2) the entire mindset of a factory job as being anything other than temporary. This is how we got to where we are. We stopped dreaming the American dream and we stopped wanting it for our children. And it's both liberal and conservative alike who want to be comfortable more than anything. Illegal immigrants aspire to more for the next generation than they have, but we don't. We want generations of mediocrity. It is to weep.

I'm actually not pro illegal immigration but I admire their personal vision for generational improvement. It's too bad for us citizens that we didn't regain our ancestors' sense of determination by seeing them brought back by example.

Yo hol' up. We all get we can't be as well off working in our factory jobs like you boomers once managed to by simply falling on your head. This attitude you espouse of illegals being our betters in every way is incongruous with reality. If they are so great why are they coming here? Oh that's probably because they can use institutions here that they haven't got around to destroying yet. I mean fuck it, if they are going to make America great again let's just send them back to where they are legal citizens and let them MAGA the fuck out in El Salvador.

Edit: and before Commie Cat Face saunters in with his tired "Well it's America's fault their countries suck," rebuttal let me just preemptively suggest that their fierce immigrant ambitions should have no trouble righting the wrongs that we have heaped upon them because I'm told, they work very hard and are way more ambitious than us Americans are.

[clubgop]

Who is a neocon? We were starting to get a handle on this but now we seem to be sliding back to it mean "Republican I don't like." You might mean Alt-right or even paleoconservative which is the opposite of neo-.

Nontraditional conservatives - loose definition of socially conservative outwardly, proclaiming fiscal conservatism but picking and choosing who for. It's not a good definition. I don't know what a paleoconservative is. Definitely not alt-right - that's just current slang for white supremacist. If you have a good source for good definitions of current conservative definitions I'll go there.

[clubgop]

This borrowed from another poster here and is fairly straightforward and accurate.

Part 1 - The Neoconservative Influence

The neoconservative movement had been an influential force in government policy for over 40 years, most notably in the Reagan administration. Their main distinction from other conservative groups is based in foreign policy, mainly in regards to the use of military and diplomatic power to remain the preeminent global superpower, and to create a world that is favorable to "American principles and interests".

It is important to understand that neoconservatism was not it's own distinct subset of the Republican party, but could more accurately be described as political persuasion.

In the 1992 document, Defense Planning Guidance, Under Secretary for Defense for Policy Paul Wolfowitz stated:
The third goal is to preclude any hostile power from dominating a region critical to our interests, and also thereby to strengthen the barriers against the reemergence of a global threat to the interests of the U.S. and our allies. These regions include Europe, East Asia, the Middle East/Persian Gulf, and Latin America. Consolidated, nondemocratic control of the resources of such a critical region could generate a significant threat to our security.


The ability of this movement to influence American policy comes from it's policy think tanks, prominent government officials, and influential political commentators. A clear example of this coalition of like-minded individuals can be seen in the Project for the New American Century. PNAC was established in 1997 by William Kristol (political analyst, commentator, founder of The Weekly Standard, former Cheif of Staff to VP Dan Quayle) and Robert Kagan (columnist, foreign-policy commentator, and 1984-86 United States Department of State Policy Planning Staff member).

In their 1997 Statement of Principles, Elliot Abrams puts forth the group's main objectives:
we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;
we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;
we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;
we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.


Of the 25 original signatories of PNAC, 14 were given positions in the George W. Bush administration, most notably:
Dick Cheney – Vice President of the United States
I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby - Chief of Staff to Vice President Cheney
Donald Rumsfeld – Secretary of Defense
Paul Wolfowitz – Deputy Secretary of Defense Department

Two other key figures in the neoconservative movement who played a very prominent role in shaping the early George W. Bush administration were:
Douglas Feith - Under Secretary of Defense for Policy
Richard Perle - Chairman of the Defense Policy Board

[DrYouth]

I feel a big post coming on here...

This thread is coming from somewhere deep for me.
It's really about this forum... and it's about Dan Carlin and what he has been trying to achieve.
It's about what happened to the former DCF and what's happening to the USA and in some ways the rest of the world.

What I want the MHF to be is a life raft.... but more than that a seed that grows.
I want this place to allow the left and right to cooperate rather than tear each other to shreds.
Dan and I believe that there is common ground.
That the left and right may differ in their values, but that many problems impact the left and right equally and that compromise and shared solutions are the answer.

Here on the MHF we have long time posters on the left and the right... but we have bridged the gap of mutual respect in a lot of cases.
That being said, I can't help but think that what happened on the DCF is that our differences led to a meltdown that brought the place down.
Obviously we can all see in retrospect that we lost something precious.
We don't want that happening to this place and we don't want that happening to the USA or anywhere else.

The right can teach us about strength. It is in on the side of power. Power is not a bad thing. It protects the engine of the nation and majority culture from decay. The weak should not defeat the strong, they should only hold them accountable. The right protects the state and the culture from unnecesarry revolution. It is a counterrevolutionary principle, holding back the chaos of endless self editing and self destruction that the left can bring if unchecked.

The left can teach us about compassion. It is on the side of the potentially downtrodden. It protects the "losers" in a society. The strong should not completely oppress the weak. However the weak in a society must not drag the entire society down with them. They should not overthrow the strong and cannibalize them. They depend on the strong. The weak are a societies continuous source of renewal and the bedrock of humility and empathy. They understand what the "losers" in a society understand... how bad it can get. The strong can lose touch in their gated communities. The left holds the strong accountable.

Therefore I propose that the right and the left need each other. The left might call the right all sorts of names - like "privileged" or assholes or racists... But the left needs the right. The right might call the left "pussies", SJWs, betas or cucks, but the right needs the left. That all being said there are differences in values and how to get from point a to point b and each side has the potential to dominate in an unhealthy way.

I propose that we allow healthy conflict and vigorous debate. The thrill of battle in each thread is what we are all here for! But let us also identify common enemies where we band together. Let us see each other as brothers in arms as well as sparring mates!

Let's not tear each other apart any more than is healthy for us.

Let's fight for our nations together and let us fight for the world.

Who's with me!!