Total Solar Eclipse in August

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SuburbanFarmer
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Re: Total Solar Eclipse in August

Post by SuburbanFarmer » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:22 am

apeman wrote:
Montegriffo wrote: Go read up on it, you are completely misinformed as usual.
The clinic offered the treatment because they wanted £1.2 million and a baby to experiment on.
Even the clinic itself never said the treatment would save his life or even improve his condition.
As for the healthcare system it is less than half the cost of yours and results in a higher life expectancy.
:roll:
Assuming everything you say is true, you don't think it's messed up that the govt decides, not the parents? (I don't know the specifics of the case mind you, I am just adopting your facts)

My dad went through experimental bone marrow cancer treatment, no guarantee it would save his life or improve his condition, it was insanely expensive (though insurance covered it), should he have had the option?
No guarantee is a far cry from near-zero probability. We have a thread on this with plenty of sources for debate.

They postponed turning off life support until the American doctor was able to examine the kid. The doctor said he couldn't do anything, and the issue was resolved. StA's inherent fear of communism has kept this an active issue in his mind alone.

Re: your dad, that treatment wasn't magically free. We all paid for it. Insurance companies make profit. A lot of it.
SJWs are a natural consequence of corporatism.

Formerly GrumpyCatFace

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Fife
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Re: Total Solar Eclipse in August

Post by Fife » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:31 am

doc_loliday wrote:I'll be in Idaho for the eclipse, will any other DCF/MHFers?
I'm thinking of taking the boat out to Center Hill Lake. I'm getting obsessed with being on the exact center line now. I think being on the open water, and on the center line, is going to be the ticket. Anybody want to go with?

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/36.0732 ... 36.1626638

apeman
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Re: Total Solar Eclipse in August

Post by apeman » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:37 am

apeman wrote:Was the baby's experimental treatment gonna be privately funded?

Because in that event, I'd say the baby had ten times the right for the treatment than my dear father.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Re: your dad, that treatment wasn't magically free. We all paid for it. Insurance companies make profit. A lot of it.
Sigh.

Thanks Grumps, I had no idea that the experimental treatment wasn't free. :roll:

I do hope though that what we learned from it will help someone else.

apeman
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Re: Total Solar Eclipse in August

Post by apeman » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:43 am

Montegriffo wrote:Even the clinic itself never said the treatment would save his life or even improve his condition.
apeman wrote:Assuming everything you say is true . . . (I don't know the specifics of the case mind you, I am just adopting your facts) . . .

my dad went through experimental bone marrow cancer treatment, no guarantee it would save his life or improve his condition
GrumpyCatFace wrote:No guarantee is a far cry from near-zero probability.
It's almost like a different conversation took place, and I adopted the precise words used by the person I was talking to.

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SuburbanFarmer
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Re: Total Solar Eclipse in August

Post by SuburbanFarmer » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:44 am

apeman wrote:
apeman wrote:Was the baby's experimental treatment gonna be privately funded?

Because in that event, I'd say the baby had ten times the right for the treatment than my dear father.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Re: your dad, that treatment wasn't magically free. We all paid for it. Insurance companies make profit. A lot of it.
Sigh.

Thanks Grumps, I had no idea that the experimental treatment wasn't free. :roll:

I do hope though that what we learned from it will help someone else.
I wasn't being clear. I said that, not because I think you're an idiot, but to speak to the larger battle over socialized healthcare. Society pays for the treatment, no matter what. The difference in ours is that somebody makes a pile of profit on top.
SJWs are a natural consequence of corporatism.

Formerly GrumpyCatFace

https://youtu.be/CYbT8-rSqo0

apeman
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Re: Total Solar Eclipse in August

Post by apeman » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:49 am

GrumpyCatFace wrote:
apeman wrote:
apeman wrote:Was the baby's experimental treatment gonna be privately funded?

Because in that event, I'd say the baby had ten times the right for the treatment than my dear father.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Re: your dad, that treatment wasn't magically free. We all paid for it. Insurance companies make profit. A lot of it.
Sigh.

Thanks Grumps, I had no idea that the experimental treatment wasn't free. :roll:

I do hope though that what we learned from it will help someone else.
I wasn't being clear. I said that, not because I think you're an idiot, but to speak to the larger battle over socialized healthcare. Society pays for the treatment, no matter what. The difference in ours is that somebody makes a pile of profit on top.
Gotcha, we're on the same page, would just note that once they experiment on enough poor souls with mantle cell lymphoma, they might know how to save one.

And of course it is hard to discuss cost w/r to healthcare (as dan pointed out in a particularly boring common sense) esp. with one's dear father.

I will say this: He actually did two experimental treatments, first one bought him an additional very healthy and active 2 years of life, second ensured that his final time was agony. And I do already see how someone will apply this anecdotal experience to the British baby issue.

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Total Solar Eclipse in August

Post by Speaker to Animals » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:43 pm

The money has nothing to do with this issue. The government literally kidnapped a baby and refused to allow the parents take the baby to a better health care system in order to potentially save his life with treatment that they could not provide. They killed this baby to avoid the political fallout from having to face the situation whereby the baby was taken to America and saved. This was murder.

Again: it has nothing to do with the money. The family raised the money privately. I don't have a problem with the insurer or socialized medicine system refusing to pay for a treatment they deem risky. I have a problem with them kidnapping a baby so that the parents cannot take their own baby to a different health care system for treatment. This was murder.

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Fife
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Re: Total Solar Eclipse in August

Post by Fife » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:45 pm

:think: :think: :think:

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Total Solar Eclipse in August

Post by Speaker to Animals » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:47 pm

True fact. God, save us from these moronic science entertainers.

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Montegriffo
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Re: Total Solar Eclipse in August

Post by Montegriffo » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:37 pm

apeman wrote:I could see that Monty was here on the forum for a bit reading my question due to the notification at the bottom of the screen, and now he is gone.

I often think Monty has a coherent point of view even when I disagree, I do not think he views me as a crazy right winger either, so I was wondering how he would respond.
Sorry for the late reply I logged off after making my last post. I'm in a field in West Sussex getting geared up for feeding the crowd at a jousting event.

To answer your questions.
The courts sided with the doctors who had been treating Charlie since becoming ill. The doctors at Great Ormand steet hospital are the country's leading child specialists. Their opinion was that keeping Charlie alive amounted to mistreatment. Charlie was severely brain damaged and could neither hear nor comunicate. It was impossible to know whether he could feel pain or not but was on strong opiates anyway. The treatment offered was experimental, had never been used on patients with this disorder and had zero chance of ''curing'' Charlie. He would never regain conciousness and at best it would only prolong his miserable life for a few weeks or months at best if he even survived the journey all the way to America on life support machines.
To answer your question about learning from the experimental treatment. Experimenting on a live patient when there is no hope of improvement is not legal in the UK.
The reason that the courts took the decision away from the parents is that it was felt they did not have the best interests of Charlie in mind due to their understandable wish to keep Charlie alive for as long as possible.
It was a very sad case and many people thought that the clinic in the US was cynically exploiting the heartbroken parents, giving them false hope in order to benefit financially. The doctors at the private clinic in the US turned down the opportunity to examine Charlie when offered the chance back in January. When they finally examined the health records and recent brain scans just a week before treatment was withdrawn they changed their minds and said they no longer believed they could help Charlie.
It was not really controversial here as the well informed public understood the details of the case due to the months of media coverage.
Unfortunately the right in America have exploited the case, mis-represented the facts and used it to attack the idea of single payer healthcare.

Hope that answers your questions. I am not deluded enough to think the likes of StA will accept my explaination but I hope you can now see there is a lot more to it than ''the state is violence'' which is how it has been portrayed in the US right wing media.
For legal reasons, we are not threatening to destroy U.S. government property with our glorious medieval siege engine. But if we wanted to, we could. But we won’t. But we could.
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