CA Minimum Wage is Bad for Workers? Inconceivable!!

User avatar
Speaker to Animals
Posts: 38685
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:59 pm

Re: CA Minimum Wage is Bad for Workers? Inconceivable!!

Post by Speaker to Animals » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:24 pm

Fife wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:A better way to run businesses would be coupled with a basic income. Workers get paid a percentage of the profit. If there is no profit, they don't get paid. If profits suck, then their pay sucks. They always have basic income, just like everybody. A career ought to be approached in the same way that business is approached. It's about making calculated risks.

If we also transitioned away from banks and towards venture capital to fund business ventures, then everybody would have an incentive to responsibly manage their capital (and labor is a capital asset when you think about it).

Currently, nobody is responsible for dick. A corporation can take out a loan for a shit business plan and not really follow through seriously. They can get bailed out by the government, or even just have their shitty business model subsidized by the government. If they go under, they can't pay the banks back. But are the banks responsible with their capital? Nope. They just go to the government for bailouts or try to take the money from the bondholders in the bankruptcy hearings.

Workers don't give a fuck either. The chicks at the front desk don't care if they ignored and pissed off the guy trying to get directions to his appointment. Oh, was that guy here about a million dollar contract? Oh well. Talk to the union rep. Who doesn't give a shit if the union drags the corporation into the ground either.

Ideally, everybody would have a stake in the business' success. Right now, workers are like vampires who want to provide as little as possible without getting fired (not all, but many). They have no real interest in whether the business succeeds. If they help run it into the ground, they just move on like a cloud of locusts.

Investors and lenders don't give a shit either. The government enforces their transaction with violence. When the business doesn't have anything with which to pay the debts, the government takes the money from somebody (probably the taxpayers).

We ought to have a system where top-to-bottom everybody involved has an interest in this business succeeding, and everybody involved has an interest in looking for the most profitable endeavor possible. Instead of just looking for a job somewhere, workers ought to look for the job at the business most likely to pay off best for them. If they have a high tolerance for risk, then they could look into start-ups. If not, they can look into solid, well-run businesses with positive cash flow, growing earnings, and a relatively efficient workforce. To get capital to run that business, the owners have to convince venture capitalists who don't get their money back if the venture fails either. The venture capitalist has every interest in investing his money smartly.

I could go on and on about this, but what we have right now is total shit. Socialism isn't a fix. That's a fucking nightmare that's even worse.
How much is the basic income, and how is it funded? Is it connected to employment at all?

How is the term "profit" defined, and who referees the books for everyone from the Walmart down to the solo CPA with 2 employees?

Who determines how the "profit" is divided?

Does the CEO get a bigger percentage than a mail room clerk?

Well, that's the big problem. We do not yet possess a sufficiently advanced technological economy to support something like a basic income. Maybe in fifty years we could consider it, but right now we would need to transition in progressions, sort of like how we transitioned into capitalism.

Note how proto-capitalistic practices began to emerge in Europe preceding the industrial revolution. Capitalism was not feasibe until industrialization, and the technologies upon which it is contingent, emerged in our society, and yet we already began transitioning to it with mercantilism and even some of the trade practices developed in the cities during the high midle ages. These changes began before even the advent of the modern state in Europe, which also remains a pre-requisite for capitalism, despite that libertarian moonshine you drink.

Some process like that must begin anew lest we end up like the Muslims or Asians who failed to adapt to emerging modernity. Modernity simply does not last very long compared to previous phases of civilization, and here we are in an age whose analog might be 1300s Europe.

User avatar
Hanarchy Montanarchy
Posts: 5991
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:54 am

Re: CA Minimum Wage is Bad for Workers? Inconceivable!!

Post by Hanarchy Montanarchy » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:49 am

Okeefenokee wrote:You'd have a better chance at getting some changes if you implemented them at the local level on a small scale as an experiment. That involves starting a small business, getting connected with other small business owners in your area, and trying to hash out a plan to try some ideas.

Getting it pushed down from the feds will take much longer and face more opposition.
I would usually agree with the concept of testing out changes on a small localized basis. However, while the changes proposed might be good for long term sustainability and robustness, they might be less profitable in the short term, meaning they will be over run by the short term thinkers.

That has been part of the problem recently, short term, quarterly profit over long term investment.

If you are pitting compensation models against each other, the one that favors short term profits will gobble everyone else up. This doesn't mean it is 'the best' way to do things.

Burst versus stamina.
HAIL!

Her needs America so they won't just take his shit away like in some pussy non gun totting countries can happen.
-Hwen

PartyOf5
Posts: 3657
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:15 am

Re: CA Minimum Wage is Bad for Workers? Inconceivable!!

Post by PartyOf5 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:44 am

I'd like to revisit the debate about Seattle's unemployment. Going into the debate about $15 minimum wage I felt like it was a bad idea that would lead to less local jobs and higher prices.

Based on the numbers being reported, it seems like there are more jobs in Seattle.
https://fortress.wa.gov/esd/employmentd ... report.pdf

based on this report, the labor force has been increasing. During this same time the number of unemployed has been decreasing. This eliminates the possibility that the unemployment rate is fudged in some way. More potential workers plus less of them being unemployed means more jobs.

Anyone have any additional info or thoughts on what this really means?

apeman
Posts: 1566
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:33 am

Re: CA Minimum Wage is Bad for Workers? Inconceivable!!

Post by apeman » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:08 am

PartyOf5 wrote:I'd like to revisit the debate about Seattle's unemployment. Going into the debate about $15 minimum wage I felt like it was a bad idea that would lead to less local jobs and higher prices.

Based on the numbers being reported, it seems like there are more jobs in Seattle.
https://fortress.wa.gov/esd/employmentd ... report.pdf

based on this report, the labor force has been increasing. During this same time the number of unemployed has been decreasing. This eliminates the possibility that the unemployment rate is fudged in some way. More potential workers plus less of them being unemployed means more jobs.

Anyone have any additional info or thoughts on what this really means?
Glad you made it to MHF.

Hard to use this data to prove anything, we cannot measure the unseen.
That Which is Seen, and That Which is Not Seen
http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html

User avatar
LVH2
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:01 am

Re: CA Minimum Wage is Bad for Workers? Inconceivable!!

Post by LVH2 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:18 pm

Fife wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:Maybe the workers can just be forced into human kennels and paid whatever the market will bear. That should work longterm.

Why does every "solution" have to involve force, and never freedom?

Your thinking on this topic, that the only answer for cronyist force is yet more force imposed for the use and benefit of the biggest and baddest cronies--to the detriment of the poorest among us, has always escaped me.
Libertarianism is an interesting philosophy because it posits that, should a computer gain control of all the world's wealth and give us the choice between living in kennels and subsisting on gruel as we labor on its behalf, and starving to death, we would be in a state of freedom.

However, if you had many more options in life due to worker rights, affordable education and healthcare, this would be unfreedom if it involved taxing the wealthy or regulating the conduct of TNCs.

Saying that you want libertarianism, but without cronyism and oligopoly is similar to saying you want to live in a communist dictatorship where the party operates altruistically. In either case, the psychopaths and narcissists will claw their way to the top and bend the system to their will.

Anyway, obviously minimum wages eliminate some jobs. But other workers make more and have good lives and buy stuff. It prevents downward pressure on wages. e.g. let's say Burger King wants to charge 10 cents more per burger and pay their workers a living wage. But they can't because MacD's will scoop up their business. Meanwhile, most people say "I'd be fine paying 10 cents more per burger if these employees could buy their kids christmas gifts." The snag there is some kind of free rider proplem, and an informational one. You might not know that's why BK is charging more. Or, you might just prefer the taste of McD's.

Solution? Everyone pays the workers better, everyone charges 10 cents more for burgers.

Now, truthfully, I don't know if that is a net benefit. Seems like a contentious issue. But I think you have to engage it on it's own terms.

Obviously there is some point where min wage is too high. But, I think most of us would not want to see people working for $2/hr either.

Maybe we should move to more of a tipping economy. Every job involving tipping seems like a pretty good one, especially compared to it's counterpart. Waiter/FF worker. Cabbie/Uber. Bartender/barista. Casino dealer/umm... someone who makes keys at a hardware store or something I guess.

Apart from the truly reprehensible, we seem to be quite happy paying people directly for adequate to exceptional service, with the ability to penalize substandard service. We know it is going in their pocket and they could probably use it.

What if all service jobs were required to have a quick and easy tip option, especially on charges? Please consider tipping your sandwich artist 99 cents: Yes/no.

What is the practical difference? Is raising the min wage, just an attempt to tip everybody all at once, and force the cheapskates to kick in too?

Would opponents of min wage favor the prohibition of tipping, so that waiters, dealers, bartenders made $10 an hour, as this would be for their own good, due to the fact that there would be a greater number of jobs?

User avatar
LVH2
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:01 am

Re: CA Minimum Wage is Bad for Workers? Inconceivable!!

Post by LVH2 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:43 pm

PartyOf5 wrote:I'd like to revisit the debate about Seattle's unemployment. Going into the debate about $15 minimum wage I felt like it was a bad idea that would lead to less local jobs and higher prices.

Based on the numbers being reported, it seems like there are more jobs in Seattle.
https://fortress.wa.gov/esd/employmentd ... report.pdf

based on this report, the labor force has been increasing. During this same time the number of unemployed has been decreasing. This eliminates the possibility that the unemployment rate is fudged in some way. More potential workers plus less of them being unemployed means more jobs.

Anyone have any additional info or thoughts on what this really means?
I alluded to it just a bit. But one factor could be, more people have money to buy stuff, particularly in the local economy.

Hard to prove, but the narrative makes sense. Wal-mart employee goes to $15. One of his co-workers is laid off. Prices go up a little. Less money is vacuumed from the local economy and into the Walton family's pockets.

The remaining employees begin to eat out more, go to the movies, getting coffee before work. Yeah, prices went up a little, but they just got a 40% raise or whatever.

Now the restaurant, movie theater and coffee shop need to hire new people.

User avatar
Fife
Posts: 15157
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:47 am

Re: CA Minimum Wage is Bad for Workers? Inconceivable!!

Post by Fife » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:18 am

LVH2 wrote: One of his co-workers is laid off. Prices go up a little.

Sad!

Smitty-48
Posts: 36399
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:22 am

Re: CA Minimum Wage is Bad for Workers? Inconceivable!!

Post by Smitty-48 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:41 am

It's not Walmart who gets dinged by the $15/hr, you're not taking money out of Walmarts pockets, nor supporting local businesses against a behemoth like Walmart, when you impose a $15/hr minimum wage, that actually kills the small businesses to Walmart's favour, it's the little guy who gets priced out by $15/hr, not the Walton Family and Co.

Costco here pays $21/hr, it's a good wage, but they're probably crushing more small business around here than Walmart is, Costco is packed all day everyday, Walmart is actually pretty empty most of the time, much as I love Costco, sometimes I go to Walmart just to avoid the crowds, but one thing I never do, is buy from a small business, because they can't compete on price nor service, and dinging them with a 50% increase in their labour costs, ain't gonna help them do that, it's actually just big government intervention to the advantage of the corporate behemoths, at the expense of the mom and pops.

As a Costco shareholder, I am happy to pay the $21/hr, it's no skin off my teeth, it doesn't cut into the dividend, but make no mistake, we are the corporate behemoth, and we are out to crush mom and pop, and the government imposing a labour cost on them which is prohibitive to their economies of scale, while we the corporate behemoth won't even notice, is entirely to our advantage, not mom and pop's, with the big government's help, mom and pop will be working for us before too long; 50% increase in labour cost will put them right out of business... and rightly so, I hate small retailers, always trying to gouge me to make their margins, fuck off mom and pop, the sooner you die the better...
Nec Aspera Terrent

User avatar
Martin Hash
Posts: 18721
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:02 pm

Re: CA Minimum Wage is Bad for Workers? Inconceivable!!

Post by Martin Hash » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:03 am

"If employees want to be treated like employers, they should start their own fucking business." - me

"Employees are allies, not partners." - me

Obviously all the "workers" people here have never had a business. Fuck employees. (And, obviously, I have had a business, or two, or three, or five.)
Shamedia, Shamdemic, Shamucation, Shamlection, Shamconomy & Shamate Change

User avatar
Martin Hash
Posts: 18721
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:02 pm

Re: CA Minimum Wage is Bad for Workers? Inconceivable!!

Post by Martin Hash » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:21 am

I just thought I'd represent the other side. Google it yourself, over 99% of all new jobs are created by Small Business. Every one of these "employees are getting shafted threads" are always about the 1% big corporations, but $15/hr doesn't even affect the biggies. Mom & Pop don't want to hear how you need more money cuz you got a kid when they're already working 80-120 hrs/wk and doing all the shit jobs, and barely making it.

"I only got paid a buck an hour owning my own business but I made up for it in hours." - me
Shamedia, Shamdemic, Shamucation, Shamlection, Shamconomy & Shamate Change