DACA

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

They were given citizenship by somebody who didn't have the right to give it. It sucks that they have to return it, but they should be angry at their parents.

They have not been given citizenship by their parents. They are simply in the unenviable position of being residents in a land where they aren't citizens because of their parents choices. We can choose to offer them an expedited path to citizenship because of this. And we can choose what we do with them in the meantime. StA has suggested deporting them (at the states expense, mind you) and letting them apply from elsewhere. That seems pointless, and, if they don't want to leave, a forced relocation premised on the illegality of their parent's actions.

Or we can decide that their residency here is meaningless because it is the result of someone else's illegal act.

Citizenship, residency, end the rest, are all within our power to define, as we like. I would choose to define them very strictly, and with a conscious effort to prioritize the sovereignty of the individual, without transferring the crimes of one person to another, regardless of their relationship.

[doc_loliday]

Nobody is arguing that it was their illegal act. That has zero bearing on the consequences of the law. Why are you italicizing it? It's not an argument. If you are given stolen merchandise you don't get to keep it. If I take something from you and give it away, the recipient doesn't own it. Somebody else stole it! It was their illegal act! I get to keep it! It was their illegal act! It's insane premise and you know it.

[doc_loliday]

Ownership is meaningless if we define it so. lol

[Ph64]

I wonder what country you can go to, rob a store, give the goods to someone else and then cry when the goods are seized. Why are you punishing them? They really liked what I gave them!


Because it wasn't yours to begin with numbnuts, no matter how attached the recipient became to the stolen goods.

Again, if I steal and either sell or give away the property, the recipient doesn't get to keep it, just because they really like it. They're not being punished.

If I steal a candy bar form a bodega and give it to you, and you eat it, what lengths should we be expected to go to to secure the cost of the candy bar from your wallet?

I can, and should, be punished for my theft, but you aren't responsible for it.

The candy bar... well, it is never coming back. If you want to prevent the crime of me stealing it, invent a time machine.

Wrong depending on the circumstance.

If you steal the candy bar, then yes, you are guilty of theft and should be punished.

If you give the candy bar to me, and I take it *knowing* it is stolen, I am guilty of "receiving stolen property" (or maybe even conspiracy to perform the theft if I convinced you to steal it for me). (Penalties for receiving stolen property vary by state).

If I didn't know it was stolen, regardless of eating it, I'm not technically guilty because I had no idea it was stolen. However, if I didn't open/eat it, it can be taken from me, but there is no 'guilt' and therefore no penalty under the law other than it being confiscated from me as stolen property and returned to the store (rightful owner).

Putting this into DACA terms, as a minor who wasn't involved in the decision to come here you are not at fault for your parents collecting benefits, being educated here, etc - you committed no crime personally since as a young child you couldn't choose what your parents did, however the 'stolen' residency in the country can be reclaimed.

[ssu]

Yeah, does anybody really want to throw them out?

Let's see... 4D Chess???

[Alexander PhiAlipson]

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Nobody is arguing that it was their illegal act. That has zero bearing on the consequences of the law. Why are you italicizing it? It's not an argument. If you are given stolen merchandise you don't get to keep it. If I take something from you and give it away, the recipient doesn't own it. Somebody else stole it! It was their illegal act! I get to keep it! It was their illegal act! It's insane premise and you know it.

It has all the bearing on the argument. It is the entire argument.

If they haven't committed a crime, then the onus is on the state to prove why it should be allowed to compel them. Their individual sovereignty is not contingent on their citizenship.

No one has 'stolen citizenship.' DACA candidates are not citizens. Not being stolen, it can not be returned. Comparing citizenship to a product that can be stolen at all is the absurd premise. It is a bad analogy. Citizenship can be granted, or it can not be granted. It can not be stolen.

My argument is entirely about when the state should compel an act, and when it should not.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

I wonder what country you can go to, rob a store, give the goods to someone else and then cry when the goods are seized. Why are you punishing them? They really liked what I gave them!


Because it wasn't yours to begin with numbnuts, no matter how attached the recipient became to the stolen goods.

Again, if I steal and either sell or give away the property, the recipient doesn't get to keep it, just because they really like it. They're not being punished.

If I steal a candy bar form a bodega and give it to you, and you eat it, what lengths should we be expected to go to to secure the cost of the candy bar from your wallet?

I can, and should, be punished for my theft, but you aren't responsible for it.

The candy bar... well, it is never coming back. If you want to prevent the crime of me stealing it, invent a time machine.

Wrong depending on the circumstance.

If you steal the candy bar, then yes, you are guilty of theft and should be punished.

If you give the candy bar to me, and I take it *knowing* it is stolen, I am guilty of "receiving stolen property" (or maybe even conspiracy to perform the theft if I convinced you to steal it for me). (Penalties for receiving stolen property vary by state).

If I didn't know it was stolen, regardless of eating it, I'm not technically guilty because I had no idea it was stolen. However, if I didn't open/eat it, it can be taken from me, but there is no 'guilt' and therefore no penalty under the law other than it being confiscated from me as stolen property and returned to the store (rightful owner).

Putting this into DACA terms, as a minor who wasn't involved in the decision to come here you are not at fault for your parents collecting benefits, being educated here, etc - you committed no crime personally since as a young child you couldn't choose what your parents did, however the 'stolen' residency in the country can be reclaimed.

Arguing form analogy is silly and, most of the time, specious. Don't bother with the candy bar.

[ssu]

Funniest one's are the repulsive Pro-Trump Talking heads and their outrage:

[Ph64]

If I steal a candy bar form a bodega and give it to you, and you eat it, what lengths should we be expected to go to to secure the cost of the candy bar from your wallet?

I can, and should, be punished for my theft, but you aren't responsible for it.

The candy bar... well, it is never coming back. If you want to prevent the crime of me stealing it, invent a time machine.

Wrong depending on the circumstance.

If you steal the candy bar, then yes, you are guilty of theft and should be punished.

If you give the candy bar to me, and I take it *knowing* it is stolen, I am guilty of "receiving stolen property" (or maybe even conspiracy to perform the theft if I convinced you to steal it for me). (Penalties for receiving stolen property vary by state).

If I didn't know it was stolen, regardless of eating it, I'm not technically guilty because I had no idea it was stolen. However, if I didn't open/eat it, it can be taken from me, but there is no 'guilt' and therefore no penalty under the law other than it being confiscated from me as stolen property and returned to the store (rightful owner).

Putting this into DACA terms, as a minor who wasn't involved in the decision to come here you are not at fault for your parents collecting benefits, being educated here, etc - you committed no crime personally since as a young child you couldn't choose what your parents did, however the 'stolen' residency in the country can be reclaimed.

Arguing form analogy is silly and, most of the time, specious. Don't bother with the candy bar.

Funny, since you started the candy bar analogy to support your argument.