Daniel Shaver shooting

[Smitty-48]

In this case, the police heard no gunfire, saw no gun, no dead bodies, no people running around screaming. I don't think the police should assume they are dealing with Charles Witman and his hidden accomplices in such a situation. Probably better to assume that, with no signs of anything else afoot, the guy sobbing and trying to comply is a random dude who doesn't want to be the 1,000th person killed by cops this year.

If the call is that someone is pointing a rifle out of a hotel window, that's not normal, nobody does that, except mad shooters, that presents as armed and dangerous by default.

So that just speaks to their state of mind, as to why they would be so jacked up, and why they would be looking for a guy who might pull a gun on them, and reasonable doubt as to a malicious murder if they saw the guy reaching for it.

Sobbing can be play acting, like I said, that could just be trying to get them to put their guards down, so the guy could make his move. Sobbing could also be crazy man, who is at the end of his rope and about to do something irrational.

[Speaker to Animals]

Implying some anonymous phone call tip is always a fact.

Turned out it was bullshit and an innocent man was murdered.

[heydaralon]

In this case, the police heard no gunfire, saw no gun, no dead bodies, no people running around screaming. I don't think the police should assume they are dealing with Charles Witman and his hidden accomplices in such a situation. Probably better to assume that, with no signs of anything else afoot, the guy sobbing and trying to comply is a random dude who doesn't want to be the 1,000th person killed by cops this year.

Exactly. Imagine if cops always acted like there was a trap or imminent danger and treated all calls this way. Imagine if they had the SWAT team at every speed trap because there might be a sniper in the trunk. Fucking ridiculous.

[tue4t]

Ok yea that definitely makes sense with the traps and killzones - the cops couldn't possibly have any idea how many people they were dealing with.

But man, those youtube comments scare me more than the existence of trigger happy cowboy police

That could happen to cops at any given time though. What if that old lady having a seizure in the parking lot is actually just bait for the cops to show up as a sniper picks them off? Better use lethal force on her too. These dudes volunteered for this shit. This guy put you're fucked on his rifle like he is this hardened assassin, but when he got into a remotely tense situation he shit the bed and shot a guy when he had superiority in numbers, body armor, a rifle pointed directly at him etc. There isn't a situation where LEO's can eliminate all danger. There is always a risk however small, when you cuff or arrest somebody. The question is, was reducing the risk from a small percentage to an even smaller percentage worth a taxpayer getting shot over? In this case, I don't think so.

Well yea, cops shouldn't be putting you're fucked on their rifle. That's another issue altogether that ends up going up the chain about what the hell kind of culture and management is going on. Definitely a string that needs to be followed up, which most likely won't because people are too focused on the bodycam cop being fired as some sacrificial lamb.

I think it's important to take into consideration the circumstances though in relation to the actual shooting. Cop on the left was giving commands and could see - hence him shouting "don't". Cop on the right with the bodycam who fired couldn't see the guys right hand because it was blocked by his body. Truth be told, I might have fired too in that position if i thought my buddies might get shot so I'm hesitant to call for the cop being convicted of 1st/2nd degree murder. Should have looked for gun in hand in hindsight though maybe.

As for risk reduction, it's hard for me to say anything worth listening to on that. I really have no experience with this kind of thing, wouldn't be able to judge that.

[LVH2]

Radley Balko has written a lot of great stuff about the problems of policing in America. Cops today act like they are soldiers. A soldiers role is vastly different than that of a peace officer. Soldiers occupy enemy territory, police are supposed to protect citizens who subsidize their wages. We have it all ass backwards in the states.

Negative.

It's far easier for a LEO in America to shoot an American Citizen than for a Soldier to shoot a hajji planting an IED.

Now, the Law Enforcement likes to play Soldier, but they are not, totally different missions as you point to. But Cops need to understand their number one job is to protect the lives of US citizens, even those breaking the law. And what LEOs need to get in their head is that they SERVE the US CITIZENS and when they sign up, they sign up to give their lives to protect All US citizens.

+1

And, as Speaker said, (I think), their lives are not worth 20 of ours.

[heydaralon]

Let's also point out, that it appears that Shaver's "menacing" hand movement appeared to result from Shaver instinctively putting his hand down to break his fall after being asked to crawl in a ridiculous and difficult manner. Had the cop given clear instructions that made sense, and would have been easier for Shaver to comply, this situation would have been avoided. Either way, this pudgy Martin Shkreli looking cretin created a situation where a taxpayer got popped.

[Speaker to Animals]

The ridiculous commands were meant for Shaver to fail so that Officer Simon Says could kill somebody. It was murder.

[heydaralon]

Loool there were at least 6 cops backing this guy up too. What a fucking coward. 7 cops dressed in Kevlar +helmets with rifles pointed versus a drunk guy in his underwear. Unless shaver was wild bill Hickok and quick draw mcgraw rolled into one, my money is on the cops being able handle this without shooting him. Absolutely pitiful.

[LVH2]

I think the militarization talk is a canard, personally. I don't really care what kit the police carry. I don't care if they get hand-me-down APCs and whatever else from the Pentagon.

I care about how they behave and carry out their duties.

A piece of shit, murderous cop with a .38 revolver is still a threat to you. He doesn't become a threat simply because he carries an AR15 or dresses like a fucking tacticool douche.

At the very least it's a cultural thing. Cops using military equipment, tactics and mindset come to treat us like inhabitants of occupied territory. Everything revolves around force. They assume a military mentality, and do things like write "you're fucked" on their guns, which reminds me of "Happy Easter, Adolph" being written on bombs. They use SWAT teams to bust people for outstanding warrants or selling pot and shoot the family pets.

Wearing a normal uniform and a normal car with a modest weapon is appropriate to a public servant who might occasionally have to use it as a last resort.

Might also have an affect on who is drawn to sign up.

I've played lots of poker with a guy who was a cop and met several others. Mostly nice guys. Spent hours with a guy who led a SWAT team. He was a psycho.

[Speaker to Animals]

I think the militarization talk is a canard, personally. I don't really care what kit the police carry. I don't care if they get hand-me-down APCs and whatever else from the Pentagon.

I care about how they behave and carry out their duties.

A piece of shit, murderous cop with a .38 revolver is still a threat to you. He doesn't become a threat simply because he carries an AR15 or dresses like a fucking tacticool douche.

At the very least it's a cultural thing. Cops using military equipment, tactics and mindset come to treat us like inhabitants of occupied territory. Everything revolves around force. They assume a military mentality, and do things like write "you're fucked" on their guns, which reminds me of "Happy Easter, Adolph" being written on bombs. They use SWAT teams to bust people for outstanding warrants or selling pot and shoot the family pets.

Wearing a normal uniform and a normal car with a modest weapon is appropriate to a public servant who might occasionally have to use it as a last resort.

Might also have an affect on who is drawn to sign up.

I've played lots of poker with a guy who was a cop and met several others. Mostly nice guys. Spent hours with a guy who led a SWAT team. He was a psycho.

But that's not really even a military thing. They didn't become massive cunts sporting tacticool fashion because the military gave them rifles and some vehicles. That stuff began long before the GWOT. From what I can tell, the occupation-style culture began with LAPD and it fused with the criminal culture you find in organizations like the Chicago PD which is quite corrupt and packed with violent criminals.

People need to realize that police are just gangs. This is gang behavior. That's not to say it's bad because of its gang nature. Gangs are normal social structures for homo sapiens. The problem is that we don't balance that with the rule of law. The armed forces are gangs too. Our individual units are like smaller gangs within the branches. But if servicemen do things like these cops are doing, they get held accountable to the UCMJ and the laws of armed conflict. We foster that gang mentality (we call esprit de corps) but we balance it with enforced virtues like integrity and honor, with a strong adherence to a code. Police don't have that balance.

What cunts like this prove is that there exists no integrity or honor in the police departments. They are nothing like real warriors.