President for Life

[Calculus Man]

For those who don't remember, DB and Ooky had this same discussion on the old forum, and Ooky admitted that the reason she thinks everyone is racist is because she herself is racist.

The more you know.

I only started to understand modern leftism when I realized that it was largely projection.

Out of all the people I hung out with in childhood, the biggest future SJW was the girl who refused to date black guys.

"I'm racist, but it couldn't be a personal flaw because I'm great. Society must be racist!!1"

[Calculus Man]

It all goes to context. And yes, things you say or do to a black person may be racist, when saying the exact same thing to a white person would not be. Because of that context of what people of different races are exposed to that is not shared. Black people in this country have been compared to monkeys in unfavorable, racist ways historically. Just because that mom didn't actually KNOW that, and her racism was entirely unintentional, she meant absolutely no harm, and her self image in being a good mom to her adopted son is very heavily dependent on her not thinking she is a racist person (the kid was an infant, by the way, and didn't choose his costume) -- all of that still doesn't mean it's not racist. A clothing company recently put a catalog picture up with a black boy wearing a shirt that said happiest monkey in the jungle or some similar shit, and the response was so huge and swift that several people stopped advertising for them, boycotts were initiated, etc. So yes it is a "thing", and is widely considered straight up racist, and it is the job of that white mom to learn this stuff to be the best mom to her kid that she can be, even though she may feel uncomfortable at times.

Why do you assume that she didn't know that? Racism without intent to insult/harm is not racism. It's a faux pas, and nothing more. Hell, maybe she was even being clever, and did it as a joke.
It's considered 'straight up racist', because people are looking for things to be offended about. Why can't a black kid wear a shirt like that (monkey in the jungle)? Should they be avoiding any mention of primates, lest other black people be "offended"? They're just as closely related to apes as any other human beings.
This is the sort of thing that keeps the SJW machine running - pretending that any mention of a monkey around black people is racist. It's absurd, to say the least. If anything, it's incredibly pandering to think that any functioning adult in modern society is unaware of the old "monkey" sterotype about blacks.

When black people to tell white people, this is racist behavior/connotation/dog whistle, even if you didn't know before, now you do, and then white people tell them they are wrong, that's both stubborn and counter productive. We cannot tell black Americans their experience, that is the height of hubris. None of us white Americans will never know exactly what it is like to go through life in this country being black (or a person of color, period, but there is a special history for black americans that makes things especially bad for them). We can strive for maximum empathy, to understand as best we can, but that doesn't include, for example, just telling a black woman she is wrong to explain that a white person commenting on her hair is racist (yes this is also very much a thing and it makes total sense once you understand where they are coming from).

There is no reason to 'strive for maximum empathy'. These are adults. They don't need a hug or a tissue to cry into, they need respect. And the more they act like children about minor terminology, or incidental offenses, the more they isolate themselves from other adults. There is practically nothing 'holding back' a black person from achievement anymore. They're more likely to have started with a disadvantage, having grown up with abusive parents or such, but that could happen to anyone. That does not deserve special treatment for an entire group of people with that skin tone.

I think part of what the issue with race is in this country is that we all know racism exists. But we imagine it is perpetrated only by really bad people who hate other races. Yes, some of it comes from that, but much more of it is way more subtle, and enacted by honestly good people. Death by a thousand cuts stuff. A challenge to white people in America is to listen and try to learn when a person of color tells them something is racist without getting defensive and aggressive about the POC's inability to determine what they are experiencing- honestly i think that is the really widespread hypersensitivity.

Nobody wants to be called a monster. And that's the implied accusation made, over incidental nonsense.
The fact that a POC is calling someone a racist does not automatically mean that it is so. They can be just as wrong as anyone else. And most people don't have the time for a long heart-to-heart over whatever that person decided to be offended about, so they just walk away, or dismiss it.

I also have to say now I don't think Maxine Waters is an idiot. I haven't agreed with everything she ever said, but I also agree with her on a lot of stuff. And you can't beat her moxie. I think for a sitting president to say that about a sitting senator is disgraceful, and if he really thinks that he should back it up with exactly what he is talking about.

She is legitimately an idiot. She is the chair of the Financial Services Committee, and completely unfit for the job. Every year, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve gives testimony to the committee, and she spends her 3 minutes asking the same question every year - 'How are you helping black people?' That has absolutely nothing to do with the Fed, and never will. But every year, she does the same thing.

Add to that, a long record of feckless nonsense and race-baiting, and she is - legitimately - an idiot. Being a black woman has nothing to do with it, other than the fact that she parades it around to score political points.

+1.

[nmoore63]

Where I quickly get sent to Room 101 for re-education is I see structural racism, but think government efforts to force solve the puzzle are evil.

I think a lot of POC even agree with that position. Even more, even if they don't agree, would still see it as a valid position to have. I think that the government should do some things, since we started out in this country with them literally being 3/5 of a person it seems some governmental redress would have to be involved at some point to actually provide truly equal opportunities, but I agree there needs to be a careful conversation on what those things are. For example, I think the Civil Rights Act is not a bad thing.

is it a valid public opinion any more?

I think the civil rights act is largely symbolic. I’m not into tearing down symbols, but 1964? When was the long hot summer? When was Dr King shot? Moore Furniture could not hiring minorities today and get away with it. And mega corps worship a god that’s only sees one color and it’s not black or white. But I as said, we can have our symbols.

I see the president of Moore furniture makes more than the average wage. I am white, my wife is white. Not because I’m racist, that’s just how it turned out. All else being equal, white wages would be ahead of minorities wages. (At least for the next 50 years until my son has the chance of marrying a minority) I don’t see a problem that needs solving there.

[Okeefenokee]

[Hastur]

I hope Frank DeMartini decides to run against Maxine. She's been exploiting poor people enough now. Time to kick her out. I can hardly believe some people are seriously considering her as a presidential candidate. What a fucking dumpster fire that would be.

[BjornP]

It all goes to context. And yes, things you say or do to a black person may be racist, when saying the exact same thing to a white person would not be. Because of that context of what people of different races are exposed to that is not shared.

It does go to context, but whose context? You're a woman. If we still lived in the 1950's, you'd be in the kitchen preparing your husband a sandwich for when he got home from work, instead of being a scientist in a business leadership position. Contexts change and they don't simply do so passively. One has to consistentlytalk, one has to consistently behave a new reality into being a new reality. What one associates women with today is different from what one associated women with 60 years ago. Bear that in mind...

Racism is believing in your own race's superiority over that of another race. It is about an assumed superiority of one's race by associating certain (usually invented) traits among some other race as signs of inferiority. For example, that historical assocation of monkeys with black (African) people.

If you know about this historical association, as most actually do, should that preclude black children from dressing up as or wearing monkey print clothing? Because someone will make the black people->monkey->inferiority association, either because they're racist or they're aware of the historically racist association themselves? Ask yourself a simple question: If the culprit is the (highly negative) association between monkeys and black people, is the best response to this historical association:

A: Awareness of the association, but try to take the ownership of the association back from the racists who originally crafted it and/or still use it that way?
B: Awareness of the association, and accepting that racists fought for and legitimately won the discursive right to associate monkeys with black people and that now and forever more, only white people can dress up as or wear monkey print clothing?

(The way I framed that ought to indicate where I stand on that issue, I guess... )

Why should black people live mentally enslaved to a context crafted FOR them by racist white people hundreds of years ago in which they were likened to monkeys, why should they restrict themselves and their kids from eating, dressing, behaving, talking, etc. in certain ways because people who looked/look down on them associate those things with inferiority? Why should you, if you reject the premise, the assumption and the association that black people are like monkeys?

By accepting that it's the racists who get to own that association, that the historical racist association between monkeys and black people HAS to stay that way, you're simply surrendering to racists. And who wants to be a surrender monkey?

[clubgop]

I also have to say now I don't think Maxine Waters is an idiot.... I think for a sitting president to say that about a sitting senator is disgraceful,.

I guess it takes an idiot not to identify an idiot.

[clubgop]

It all goes to context. And yes, things you say or do to a black person may be racist, when saying the exact same thing to a white person would not be. Because of that context of what people of different races are exposed to that is not shared. Black people in this country have been compared to monkeys in unfavorable, racist ways historically. Just because that mom didn't actually KNOW that, and her racism was entirely unintentional, she meant absolutely no harm, and her self image in being a good mom to her adopted son is very heavily dependent on her not thinking she is a racist person (the kid was an infant, by the way, and didn't choose his costume) -- all of that still doesn't mean it's not racist. A clothing company recently put a catalog picture up with a black boy wearing a shirt that said happiest monkey in the jungle or some similar shit, and the response was so huge and swift that several people stopped advertising for them, boycotts were initiated, etc. So yes it is a "thing", and is widely considered straight up racist, and it is the job of that white mom to learn this stuff to be the best mom to her kid that she can be, even though she may feel uncomfortable at times.

Why do you assume that she didn't know that? Racism without intent to insult/harm is not racism. It's a faux pas, and nothing more. Hell, maybe she was even being clever, and did it as a joke.
It's considered 'straight up racist', because people are looking for things to be offended about. Why can't a black kid wear a shirt like that (monkey in the jungle)? Should they be avoiding any mention of primates, lest other black people be "offended"? They're just as closely related to apes as any other human beings.
This is the sort of thing that keeps the SJW machine running - pretending that any mention of a monkey around black people is racist. It's absurd, to say the least. If anything, it's incredibly pandering to think that any functioning adult in modern society is unaware of the old "monkey" sterotype about blacks.

When black people to tell white people, this is racist behavior/connotation/dog whistle, even if you didn't know before, now you do, and then white people tell them they are wrong, that's both stubborn and counter productive. We cannot tell black Americans their experience, that is the height of hubris. None of us white Americans will never know exactly what it is like to go through life in this country being black (or a person of color, period, but there is a special history for black americans that makes things especially bad for them). We can strive for maximum empathy, to understand as best we can, but that doesn't include, for example, just telling a black woman she is wrong to explain that a white person commenting on her hair is racist (yes this is also very much a thing and it makes total sense once you understand where they are coming from).

There is no reason to 'strive for maximum empathy'. These are adults. They don't need a hug or a tissue to cry into, they need respect. And the more they act like children about minor terminology, or incidental offenses, the more they isolate themselves from other adults. There is practically nothing 'holding back' a black person from achievement anymore. They're more likely to have started with a disadvantage, having grown up with abusive parents or such, but that could happen to anyone. That does not deserve special treatment for an entire group of people with that skin tone.

I think part of what the issue with race is in this country is that we all know racism exists. But we imagine it is perpetrated only by really bad people who hate other races. Yes, some of it comes from that, but much more of it is way more subtle, and enacted by honestly good people. Death by a thousand cuts stuff. A challenge to white people in America is to listen and try to learn when a person of color tells them something is racist without getting defensive and aggressive about the POC's inability to determine what they are experiencing- honestly i think that is the really widespread hypersensitivity.

Nobody wants to be called a monster. And that's the implied accusation made, over incidental nonsense.
The fact that a POC is calling someone a racist does not automatically mean that it is so. They can be just as wrong as anyone else. And most people don't have the time for a long heart-to-heart over whatever that person decided to be offended about, so they just walk away, or dismiss it.

I also have to say now I don't think Maxine Waters is an idiot. I haven't agreed with everything she ever said, but I also agree with her on a lot of stuff. And you can't beat her moxie. I think for a sitting president to say that about a sitting senator is disgraceful, and if he really thinks that he should back it up with exactly what he is talking about.

She is legitimately an idiot. She is the chair of the Financial Services Committee, and completely unfit for the job. Every year, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve gives testimony to the committee, and she spends her 3 minutes asking the same question every year - 'How are you helping black people?' That has absolutely nothing to do with the Fed, and never will. But every year, she does the same thing.

Add to that, a long record of feckless nonsense and race-baiting, and she is - legitimately - an idiot. Being a black woman has nothing to do with it, other than the fact that she parades it around to score political points.

+1.

The monkey thing is really not good. She gets points for taking the kid in but don't do that. Cut the tail off, add some claws and say it's a bear.

One little correction. She is not chair of that or any other committee as her party is in the minority, she would be the ranking member.