W.H.O. (are you), WHO WHO

[heydaralon]

To me it is all silliness. No country doing fucked up shit is going to be honest with the UN, because it is not in their interest to do so. And since just about every single crisis that has occured in UN history either involved a security council member or someone allied with a security council member their response is always pisspoor or nonexistent. So its like, whats the point, man?

I don't know what to say. If you think that organizations dedicated to being a platform for international diplomacy and information sharing are pointless, then there isn't anything I can say that is going to convince you otherwise.

However, saying that they are useless BECAUSE bad agents will hide their bad agency is like saying police and justice systems are pointless because criminals will always lie about their crimes.

Well, if every criminal could hide their crimes from the cops more or less without consequences, it would sort of raise questions about the purpose of having the police agency. It would leave two options:

1) Give the police more power (the police being the UN, so we are probably in agreement that's not what we want to do)
2) Disband the ineffective law enforcement agency and figure out other ways to deal with the problem.

[BjornP]

That WHO officials have placated China doesn't mean that the WHO is now entirely under Chinese control. Doesn't work like that. China isn't even in the top ten of contributors. Sweden actually funds the WHO more. Whenever Chinese diplomats work these days, they try to control everything. Chinese officials demand, or simply expect, that non-Chinese governments and organizations will let the Chinese government save "face", and look as good as possible, whenever possible.

It's not that they're really in control. They just make alot of demands, and aggressively so. Some of that is cultural, they're very keen on saving and maintaining face personally, and some of it is political. They're like a poor guy who won a coupon to a fancy restaurant, and who has started giving the waiters shit because he now feels like a bigshot. To the waiters, he's still a customer, and has to be treated as such. Their mistake is that they're taking the political considerations too far, in a time where countries' health ministries need to be able to trust each other's health stats and data.

[C-Mag]

January 31
The WHO telling the world, Everything's cool, keep up normal travel and trade.

The World Health Organization, which declared the outbreak a global health emergency this week, has recommended against any travel or trade restrictions in response to the outbreak. Member countries, however, do not have to comply with that guidance.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/01/31/as- ... ld-suffer/

Thank goodness for Experts.

[Martin Hash]

I told you to watch how Monte responds. TDS will eventually be a diagnosed psychiatric condition.

Calling someone deranged every time they point to what they see as errors, lies or deflections, sure that's how to have a grown-up conversation about world events.

I’m speaking as a doctor. You speak as a TDS sufferer.

[Martin Hash]

That WHO officials have placated China doesn't mean that the WHO is now entirely under Chinese control. Doesn't work like that. China isn't even in the top ten of contributors. Sweden actually funds the WHO more. Whenever Chinese diplomats work these days, they try to control everything. Chinese officials demand, or simply expect, that non-Chinese governments and organizations will let the Chinese government save "face", and look as good as possible, whenever possible.

It's not that they're really in control. They just make alot of demands, and aggressively so. Some of that is cultural, they're very keen on saving and maintaining face personally, and some of it is political. They're like a poor guy who won a coupon to a fancy restaurant, and who has started giving the waiters shit because he now feels like a bigshot. To the waiters, he's still a customer, and has to be treated as such. Their mistake is that they're taking the political considerations too far, in a time where countries' health ministries need to be able to trust each other's health stats and data.

Payoffs.

[C-Mag]

February 29
The WHO tells the world, Don't restrict travel and trade

Recommendations for international traffic
WHO continues to advise against the application of travel or trade restrictions to countries experiencing COVID-19 outbreaks.
In general, evidence shows that restricting the movement of people and goods during public health emergencies is ineffective in most situations and may divert resources from other interventions.
https://www.who.int/news-room/articles- ... 9-outbreak

[heydaralon]

Sweden actually funds the WHO more.

Is Hastur behind all this bullshit? Did he try to get people freaked out about this using his WHO clout so he could stay home from work and watch documentaries of trains crossing the Scandinavian countryside?

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

To me it is all silliness. No country doing fucked up shit is going to be honest with the UN, because it is not in their interest to do so. And since just about every single crisis that has occured in UN history either involved a security council member or someone allied with a security council member their response is always pisspoor or nonexistent. So its like, whats the point, man?

I don't know what to say. If you think that organizations dedicated to being a platform for international diplomacy and information sharing are pointless, then there isn't anything I can say that is going to convince you otherwise.

However, saying that they are useless BECAUSE bad agents will hide their bad agency is like saying police and justice systems are pointless because criminals will always lie about their crimes.

Well, if every criminal could hide their crimes from the cops more or less without consequences, it would sort of raise questions about the purpose of having the police agency. It would leave two options:

1) Give the police more power (the police being the UN, so we are probably in agreement that's not what we want to do)
2) Disband the ineffective law enforcement agency and figure out other ways to deal with the problem.

Not all police work is punitive. Investigation is important, but often flawed, just as with the UN, but that doesn't make it useless. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Diplomatic relations are another a hallmark of the best police forces.

There are also nations who do respond to threat of sanction from international bodies.

What you gave me is one of your classic false dilemmas. But, again, if you don't see the use of a diplomatic organization then there is not much to say.

[BjornP]

January 31
The WHO telling the world, Everything's cool, keep up normal travel and trade.

The World Health Organization, which declared the outbreak a global health emergency this week, has recommended against any travel or trade restrictions in response to the outbreak. Member countries, however, do not have to comply with that guidance.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/01/31/as- ... ld-suffer/

Thank goodness for Experts.

That's pretty much in line with how most governments at that time also communicated. What would you expect them to have recommended instead, with the data they had available at the time?

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

February 29
The WHO tells the world, Don't restrict travel and trade

Recommendations for international traffic
WHO continues to advise against the application of travel or trade restrictions to countries experiencing COVID-19 outbreaks.
In general, evidence shows that restricting the movement of people and goods during public health emergencies is ineffective in most situations and may divert resources from other interventions.
https://www.who.int/news-room/articles- ... 9-outbreak

"In general, evidence shows that restricting the movement of people and goods during public health emergencies is ineffective in most situations and may divert resources from other interventions."

This is a true statement, and explains why experts are not keen to shut down trade and supply lines at the drop of the hat.

Being and expert doesn't mean you are infallible, but hopefully it means that you can learn from mistakes.

Perhaps in the future China will not be trusted to act in good faith when it comes to sharing public health information. Perhaps we will come up with better operations to secure the movement of goods without putting people in harms way.

Learning and problem solving are what lead to expertise, not being right all the time.