China, A Communist Nation

[BjornP]

The fact is, people across the western world have had quite enough of it. You might as well give up the ruse. You don't fool anybody with this fake nonpartisan crap.

So, still no evidence? No big deal. I've been waiting for half a decade or so for you to provide evidence of all those hysterical strawmen you felt you needed to use, in order to win your argument. Didn't expect this to be the day it all changed. For whatever it's worth, though... I have faith in you, StA.. I really do. Believe in yourself more... Don't need all that strawmanning. Go on, trust in the merits of your own arguments. You can do it!

Nonpartisan? Lol. I'm very much partisan. Unlike some of you sad fucks, I am way too smart and way too freedom-loving to just accept the premise that the world is divided into what a hysterically girlish Catholic calls "Marxists", and a radical movement of patheticos that -just like their competitors the SJW's - advocates taking away voting rights from... anyone who's not like themselves.

[Speaker to Animals]

Evidence of what?

[jbird4049]

If China's the most "Communist" nation left, Communism soundly lost. How do you think Mao would think about China being a free market economy now? About Chinese billionaries? There's a reason that if you want to find a real Maoist today, you're gonna have to go to India, or interview some old Khmer Rouge fellas. China purged them after Mao died, starting with Mao's own wife.

Having a free market capitalism does not guarentee liberty for all, either. Hasn't historically (Batista in Cuba, Pinochet in Chile, and Singapore's "benign dictatorship" is no "liberty nation", either, yet it's anything but Marxist).

And Martin... your view of Scandinavia as being a genuinely Marxist or Communist country or that our highest goals are an "Equality of Results" world... is Tolkienesque. As in a fantasy world. You may travel alot, but so do Hollywood celebrities. Hasn't made them or their geographical knowledge or knowledge about what life's like in other countries any more accurate. All Scandinavian countries are free market economies.

The world is not "Communist leaning"... Seriously... that's probably the most bizarre statement anyone on the DCF and your own forum has ever made. Look up what Communism actually is , man. Communism's goal is the end of government, it means no private ownership of the means of production, and a belief that your identity as a person is tied up in ownership of the things you produce. You can't expect intelligent people to play along with a game that includes calling anything Communism that does not fullfill all the requirements of what the word means. It would be like a Chinese person calling state control of the media "liberty", or a North Korean Juche supporter calling his one-state system a multi-party democracy. About as credible, too.

The thing your American leftists believe in, is a sad mix of idealised views of Scandinavian "Socialism" (which 9/10 has nothing to do with reality, either), progressive "White Man's Burden" type racism where they want to save all the little brown people and believing that "tax-payed" means "free". The sort of Socialism that is prevalent in Europe isn't Communism by any stretch of the imagination. It is Social Democracy. Treating European Social Democrats as Communists, is as idiotic and fact-ignorant as somebody treating anything to the right of the Social Democrat as a "Fascist".

Otoh, you have a guy like StA who believes in Universal Basic Income. How on Earth's that not what you'd feel like calling "Communist"?

Cold War's over, Martin. Socialism in Europe loves capitalism, and capitalism in Europe loves Socialism. You are perfectly free to believe in fairy tales about Europe, or even the world being "Communist", but know that that is as hard to take seriously as if a stereotypical Swedish SJW'er were to call you Fascist-Nazi Imperialists or whatever they might come up with.

There is anti-liberty sentiments in Europe, though. They're just not Communist. The old school Communist party in my country aren't peddling the SJW crap. They're peddling the old school Communist crap, instead.

Nuance is for other people because it is useful to conflate shit. Like, liberals are the same as socialists, which are the same as communists, which are the as Marxists, which are the as traitors, etc. It's how some people equate the Democratic Party to the Khmer Rouge. For that matter some do the same conflation with conservatives. Free markets is the same as capitalism, which is the same as fascism, or slavery, or whatever.

Having, and using, actual definitions in one's arguments for all those terms like free markets, capitalism, communism socialism, democracy, dictatorship, and so on, makes it one have to think logically, and clearly. We can't have that now, can we?

[Mercury]

I see your point, but China is totally communist. So are Vietnam, Laos, North Korea, and Cuba.

The recent love fest for the fallen Castro (and the misguided cultural iconography of Guevara) suggests, to some extent, that a good portion of the west is still sympathetic to communism.

In your best estimation, what sort of percentage of the Western, and/or of the US, population would you say were sympathetic to Communism and Communist icons?

Just a guess, but maybe 10% in the U.S....they don't say as much, however.

Oftentimes here, when policy opinions (which have a hard-socialist bent) are inevitably countered with examples of bad outcomes from countries that have implemented them, the individual forwarding said opinions will roll his eyes and imply that the countering view is merely a result of capitalist propaganda (I am not suggesting that you are doing this).

If a university professor claims (and I've heard more than 2 do so) that most of the bad things that we "believe" about the Soviet Union are lies, and that Che Guevara was a hero, I think he just might be a communist. He probably disagrees.

Which says nothing about the world leaders and celebrities celebrating the life of Castro, or the amount of admiration expressed for Hugo Chavez' "defiance of the American empire".

Most of the economic systems in the west are, of course, mixed. The state has a role which varies from country to country. To me, this is basically fine. I do, though, have some concern about the modern revisionism (if not romanticism) of the role that communism has played in the world.

[SilverEagle]

Have any of you watched "Made in China -Factory of the World" Documentary? It's on YouTube for free. Holy Crap are these poor Chinese brainwashed. When it came to the part where they talk about mass weddings paid for by the company my jaw hit the floor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlSHo61nRWw

[Mercury]

I see your point, but China is totally communist. So are Vietnam, Laos, North Korea, and Cuba.

The recent love fest for the fallen Castro (and the misguided cultural iconography of Guevara) suggests, to some extent, that a good portion of the west is still sympathetic to communism.

I did notice that the U of Albany held a gathering for professors and students to reflect on the accomplishments of Castro after his death.

Saw this too:

http://thecollegevoice.org/2016/12/13/r ... el-castro/

For those on the radical left across the world who oppose imperialism and global capitalism, Castro remains an especially inspirational figure, alongside his compatriot Che Guevara, whose nearly universal image captures an idealistic sense of rebellion and disillusionment with mainstream political thought. Under Castro’s rule, Cuba achieved the enormous feat of near universal coverage of quality healthcare and education, something that remains a struggle for the rest of the Global South, where basic public goods are beyond the grasp of impoverished millions. While the West supported the racist apartheid regime of South Africa, Castro voiced strong opposition, even supporting rebels in the African continent who fought against apartheid and colonialism. Castro also fiercely maintained his island nation’s autonomy, despite the odds of opposing the world’s only superpower, something that became especially difficult after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Out of 1,108 words, the word "communism" occurs once.

[Martin Hash]

If someone can give a new name to an old idea, it takes decades for all the old baggage to seep in. People who believe in Equality-of-Results deny the word "Marxist" on technical grounds because they want the time it will take for society to assign the same negative connotations to "Progressive," or some other label, to implement their plan.

The OP was about specific China-related articles that imply that China's leadership is acceptable to The World rather than rejected out-of-hand, and my supposition that if Communist China is gung-ho "Free" Trade & globalism then that's condemnation enough of both concepts.

[DrYouth]

People who believe in Equality-of-Results deny the word "Marxist" on technical grounds because they want the time it will take for society to assign the same negative connotations to "Progressive," or some other label, to implement their plan.

What do you mean by "Equality-of-Results?
I don't have my Martin Hash glossary handy.

[Martin Hash]

People who believe in Equality-of-Results deny the word "Marxist" on technical grounds because they want the time it will take for society to assign the same negative connotations to "Progressive," or some other label, to implement their plan.

What do you mean by "Equality-of-Results?

Are your fingers broken? (Google, my son.)

[BjornP]

Evidence of what?

Of me being a Communist or Marxist, as in quotes of me actually agreeing with and/or showing support for either real Marxism or simply what you call Marxism. Either will do. I am, after all, patient.