CA Minimum Wage is Bad for Workers? Inconceivable!!

[TheReal_ND]

Blah blah blah

[SuburbanFarmer]

Well for starters your talking about completely changing state laws on a federal level. It's going to be labeled as federal overreach. Rightly so imo. I guess you could try it on a state level and see what happens. That would actually not be confiscatory I think.

People say a federal minimum wage is overreach. This is simply a system that (at best of course, it could be a disaster) would acknowledge the realities of local economies, and the difficulties of small business ownership, while achieving a basic standard for compensation. It is, obviously, confiscatory to a degree. It also ties wages to production in a way that can fluctuate, so there is a danger of deflation. The fact that this might not blow up the whole damn world goes against the accepted reasoning on deflation and inflation.

I agree that people would moan about it, but people fear change and moan about everything.

I've proposed it before, and was lectured by Hashie about "liberty and ownership". Basically, sharing any set portion of profits amounts to a share of ownership, or something.

I think that's the only way this society doesn't implode, tbh. Corporatism is killing us.

[jbird4049]

Well for starters your talking about completely changing state laws on a federal level. It's going to be labeled as federal overreach. Rightly so imo. I guess you could try it on a state level and see what happens. That would actually not be confiscatory I think.

People say a federal minimum wage is overreach. This is simply a system that (at best of course, it could be a disaster) would acknowledge the realities of local economies, and the difficulties of small business ownership, while achieving a basic standard for compensation. It is, obviously, confiscatory to a degree. It also ties wages to production in a way that can fluctuate, so there is a danger of deflation. The fact that this might not blow up the whole damn world goes against the accepted reasoning on deflation and inflation.

I agree that people would moan about it, but people fear change and moan about everything.

I've proposed it before, and was lectured by Hashie about "liberty and ownership". Basically, sharing any set portion of profits amounts to a share of ownership, or something.

I think that's the only way this society doesn't implode, tbh. Corporatism is killing us.

What kinds of "liberty, and ownership" and for whom?

As a socialist, I am against the current system, and I am not a fan of corporations. But I also think that corporations have, and can, serve usefully.

In the past, they were often limited in time, and scope, with constrained powers. A group of people with some spare cash would get a charter, and go build that canal, or that trading company in X place for Y years. Useful, specific, and controlled. Today, they are just Borg-like wealth extraction machines that only exist to funnel all "liberty, and ownership" of any kind to the 0.01%, and the costs to everyone else be damned as they are currently set up under the law.

So Martin probably would say that the original system of ownership, liberty, and free markets, including corporations, have been perverted. I agree. Any system is open to being perverted, I just think that system is inherently flawed, and needs to be drastically changed, if not replaced outright.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

I'm not certain, but I think the liberty and ownership bugaboo has more to do with profit sharing in the sense of making compensation take the form of shares in the company. It is a system I am not personally opposed to, but it is much more radical than what I am proposing here.

Just making wages a percentage of the value of the business you are working for without actually passing ownership to the worker through shares is the most pro capitalist compromise I can imagine. It allows for businesses with razor thin margins to thrive, ensures workers are compensated fairly for the work they do, and ties that compensation directly to the success or failure of the company.

[Speaker to Animals]

A better way to run businesses would be coupled with a basic income. Workers get paid a percentage of the profit. If there is no profit, they don't get paid. If profits suck, then their pay sucks. They always have basic income, just like everybody. A career ought to be approached in the same way that business is approached. It's about making calculated risks.

If we also transitioned away from banks and towards venture capital to fund business ventures, then everybody would have an incentive to responsibly manage their capital (and labor is a capital asset when you think about it).

Currently, nobody is responsible for dick. A corporation can take out a loan for a shit business plan and not really follow through seriously. They can get bailed out by the government, or even just have their shitty business model subsidized by the government. If they go under, they can't pay the banks back. But are the banks responsible with their capital? Nope. They just go to the government for bailouts or try to take the money from the bondholders in the bankruptcy hearings.

Workers don't give a fuck either. The chicks at the front desk don't care if they ignored and pissed off the guy trying to get directions to his appointment. Oh, was that guy here about a million dollar contract? Oh well. Talk to the union rep. Who doesn't give a shit if the union drags the corporation into the ground either.

Ideally, everybody would have a stake in the business' success. Right now, workers are like vampires who want to provide as little as possible without getting fired (not all, but many). They have no real interest in whether the business succeeds. If they help run it into the ground, they just move on like a cloud of locusts.

Investors and lenders don't give a shit either. The government enforces their transaction with violence. When the business doesn't have anything with which to pay the debts, the government takes the money from somebody (probably the taxpayers).

We ought to have a system where top-to-bottom everybody involved has an interest in this business succeeding, and everybody involved has an interest in looking for the most profitable endeavor possible. Instead of just looking for a job somewhere, workers ought to look for the job at the business most likely to pay off best for them. If they have a high tolerance for risk, then they could look into start-ups. If not, they can look into solid, well-run businesses with positive cash flow, growing earnings, and a relatively efficient workforce. To get capital to run that business, the owners have to convince venture capitalists who don't get their money back if the venture fails either. The venture capitalist has every interest in investing his money smartly.

I could go on and on about this, but what we have right now is total shit. Socialism isn't a fix. That's a fucking nightmare that's even worse.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

I'm trying to think in baby steps.

I think you are right Speaker... but that seems like an unachievable move to make in one leap.

I knew we would eventually agree on something brother!

(Other than music of course, I've always thought you had some of the best musical taste on the boards)

[Ex-California]

A better way to run businesses would be coupled with a basic income. Workers get paid a percentage of the profit. If there is no profit, they don't get paid. If profits suck, then their pay sucks. They always have basic income, just like everybody. A career ought to be approached in the same way that business is approached. It's about making calculated risks.

If we also transitioned away from banks and towards venture capital to fund business ventures, then everybody would have an incentive to responsibly manage their capital (and labor is a capital asset when you think about it).

Currently, nobody is responsible for dick. A corporation can take out a loan for a shit business plan and not really follow through seriously. They can get bailed out by the government, or even just have their shitty business model subsidized by the government. If they go under, they can't pay the banks back. But are the banks responsible with their capital? Nope. They just go to the government for bailouts or try to take the money from the bondholders in the bankruptcy hearings.

Workers don't give a fuck either. The chicks at the front desk don't care if they ignored and pissed off the guy trying to get directions to his appointment. Oh, was that guy here about a million dollar contract? Oh well. Talk to the union rep. Who doesn't give a shit if the union drags the corporation into the ground either.

Ideally, everybody would have a stake in the business' success. Right now, workers are like vampires who want to provide as little as possible without getting fired (not all, but many). They have no real interest in whether the business succeeds. If they help run it into the ground, they just move on like a cloud of locusts.

Investors and lenders don't give a shit either. The government enforces their transaction with violence. When the business doesn't have anything with which to pay the debts, the government takes the money from somebody (probably the taxpayers).

We ought to have a system where top-to-bottom everybody involved has an interest in this business succeeding, and everybody involved has an interest in looking for the most profitable endeavor possible. Instead of just looking for a job somewhere, workers ought to look for the job at the business most likely to pay off best for them. If they have a high tolerance for risk, then they could look into start-ups. If not, they can look into solid, well-run businesses with positive cash flow, growing earnings, and a relatively efficient workforce. To get capital to run that business, the owners have to convince venture capitalists who don't get their money back if the venture fails either. The venture capitalist has every interest in investing his money smartly.

I could go on and on about this, but what we have right now is total shit. Socialism isn't a fix. That's a fucking nightmare that's even worse.

Great post.

I'd just like to add that workers are right to act like they do. You have to go into employment as an adversarial relationship because the reality is that is how the employer is looking at their workers. The vampiric activity is happening both ways; employers want to take as much productivity as possible while sharing the lowest possible denominator of wages and benefits that will at least give a modicum of loyalty. It amazing how much more everyone cares at a business like mine that actually treats its employees well. If we had profit sharing, like you suggest, I think it would generate an even better culture

Socialism is not the answer, but I truly believe that both employees and employers need to have more stake in each other and the product/service produced

[jbird4049]

A better way to run businesses would be coupled with a basic income. Workers get paid a percentage of the profit. If there is no profit, they don't get paid. If profits suck, then their pay sucks. They always have basic income, just like everybody. A career ought to be approached in the same way that business is approached. It's about making calculated risks.

If we also transitioned away from banks and towards venture capital to fund business ventures, then everybody would have an incentive to responsibly manage their capital (and labor is a capital asset when you think about it).

Currently, nobody is responsible for dick. A corporation can take out a loan for a shit business plan and not really follow through seriously. They can get bailed out by the government, or even just have their shitty business model subsidized by the government. If they go under, they can't pay the banks back. But are the banks responsible with their capital? Nope. They just go to the government for bailouts or try to take the money from the bondholders in the bankruptcy hearings.

Workers don't give a fuck either. The chicks at the front desk don't care if they ignored and pissed off the guy trying to get directions to his appointment. Oh, was that guy here about a million dollar contract? Oh well. Talk to the union rep. Who doesn't give a shit if the union drags the corporation into the ground either.

Ideally, everybody would have a stake in the business' success. Right now, workers are like vampires who want to provide as little as possible without getting fired (not all, but many). They have no real interest in whether the business succeeds. If they help run it into the ground, they just move on like a cloud of locusts.

Investors and lenders don't give a shit either. The government enforces their transaction with violence. When the business doesn't have anything with which to pay the debts, the government takes the money from somebody (probably the taxpayers).

We ought to have a system where top-to-bottom everybody involved has an interest in this business succeeding, and everybody involved has an interest in looking for the most profitable endeavor possible. Instead of just looking for a job somewhere, workers ought to look for the job at the business most likely to pay off best for them. If they have a high tolerance for risk, then they could look into start-ups. If not, they can look into solid, well-run businesses with positive cash flow, growing earnings, and a relatively efficient workforce. To get capital to run that business, the owners have to convince venture capitalists who don't get their money back if the venture fails either. The venture capitalist has every interest in investing his money smartly.

I could go on and on about this, but what we have right now is total shit. Socialism isn't a fix. That's a fucking nightmare that's even worse.

Great post.

I'd just like to add that workers are right to act like they do. You have to go into employment as an adversarial relationship because the reality is that is how the employer is looking at their workers. The vampiric activity is happening both ways; employers want to take as much productivity as possible while sharing the lowest possible denominator of wages and benefits that will at least give a modicum of loyalty. It amazing how much more everyone cares at a business like mine that actually treats its employees well. If we had profit sharing, like you suggest, I think it would generate an even better culture.


Socialism is not the answer, but I truly believe that both employees and employers need to have more stake in each other and the product/service produced

I've never understood why some people believe that the employers/owners/managers should treat the employees, even the customers, as some sort of necessary disease while the owners are the Sun, the Moon, and the Stars.

I'm trying to think in baby steps.

I think you are right Speaker... but that seems like an unachievable move to make in one leap.

I knew we would eventually agree on something brother!

(Other than music of course, I've always thought you had some of the best musical taste on the boards)

Well, we might not agree on exactly what kind of changes are needed, but we agree that they are needed.

Now, if we could push the Borg aside to get those changes. The system as it is now is so profitable to them, they refuse to see the need, so they foil all attempts. If we don't, we will get change, but probably not the kinds of ones, or in the way, we want. Kind of like the French Revolution. The longer this goes on, the more desperate people will become, and the more likely it will get very, very ugly. We might look at the Trump Presidency as the comic relief in the ongoing tragicomedy.

[Okeefenokee]

You'd have a better chance at getting some changes if you implemented them at the local level on a small scale as an experiment. That involves starting a small business, getting connected with other small business owners in your area, and trying to hash out a plan to try some ideas.

Getting it pushed down from the feds will take much longer and face more opposition.

[Fife]

A better way to run businesses would be coupled with a basic income. Workers get paid a percentage of the profit. If there is no profit, they don't get paid. If profits suck, then their pay sucks. They always have basic income, just like everybody. A career ought to be approached in the same way that business is approached. It's about making calculated risks.

If we also transitioned away from banks and towards venture capital to fund business ventures, then everybody would have an incentive to responsibly manage their capital (and labor is a capital asset when you think about it).

Currently, nobody is responsible for dick. A corporation can take out a loan for a shit business plan and not really follow through seriously. They can get bailed out by the government, or even just have their shitty business model subsidized by the government. If they go under, they can't pay the banks back. But are the banks responsible with their capital? Nope. They just go to the government for bailouts or try to take the money from the bondholders in the bankruptcy hearings.

Workers don't give a fuck either. The chicks at the front desk don't care if they ignored and pissed off the guy trying to get directions to his appointment. Oh, was that guy here about a million dollar contract? Oh well. Talk to the union rep. Who doesn't give a shit if the union drags the corporation into the ground either.

Ideally, everybody would have a stake in the business' success. Right now, workers are like vampires who want to provide as little as possible without getting fired (not all, but many). They have no real interest in whether the business succeeds. If they help run it into the ground, they just move on like a cloud of locusts.

Investors and lenders don't give a shit either. The government enforces their transaction with violence. When the business doesn't have anything with which to pay the debts, the government takes the money from somebody (probably the taxpayers).

We ought to have a system where top-to-bottom everybody involved has an interest in this business succeeding, and everybody involved has an interest in looking for the most profitable endeavor possible. Instead of just looking for a job somewhere, workers ought to look for the job at the business most likely to pay off best for them. If they have a high tolerance for risk, then they could look into start-ups. If not, they can look into solid, well-run businesses with positive cash flow, growing earnings, and a relatively efficient workforce. To get capital to run that business, the owners have to convince venture capitalists who don't get their money back if the venture fails either. The venture capitalist has every interest in investing his money smartly.

I could go on and on about this, but what we have right now is total shit. Socialism isn't a fix. That's a fucking nightmare that's even worse.

How much is the basic income, and how is it funded? Is it connected to employment at all?

How is the term "profit" defined, and who referees the books for everyone from the Walmart down to the solo CPA with 2 employees?

Who determines how the "profit" is divided?

Does the CEO get a bigger percentage than a mail room clerk?