HOLY FUCK GET IN HERE HAPPENING IN CT

[Montegriffo]

Why are you convinced Islamic values will win out in a free marketplace of ideas?

Personally, I am so convinced that western civilization is superior, that I am not concerned at all that it is incapable of winning once people have access to all the benefits of an open, secular society.

Now that's a good argument.

Do you have any data to support that is a growing trend?

Smitty once posted an interesting graph (that I am too lazy to find) showing that terrorist violence was, counter intuitive as it might seem given our exposure to it, on the decline. The evidence that western values are superior seems uncontroversial to me, but like any value statement is difficult to prove. As is the statement that the superior value system is destined to win... but abandoning those values to save them seems like a pyrrhic victory at best.

I think all of Hastur's concerns are completely valid, and there is certainly a lot that the people of western civilization need to do to protect the gains they have won over the past five or six centuries. The obvious, totally absurd, cognitive dissonance many people seem to have about criticizing the religion of peace and it's prophet (peace be upon him) is something that I find at least as disturbing as the most conservative member of this forum. But criticizing religious ideas has always been touchy, but we have over come it with the other Abrahamic religions.

There is a lot of validity to the claims of folks like Nuke who point out that criticism of Islam results in being called racist and fascist unfairly. But that position is rather weakened when those same people start openly saying legitimately racist and fascist bullshit along with their valid mockeries of Islamism. It helps confirm the very stupidest of left Islam apologists, and that is a fucking problem from where I stand...

but I don't know how to actually solve any of these problems. Fortunately, if all problems that I couldn't personally solve were intractable we would still be in the stone age, so I have good reason to believe that my mental limitations aren't broadly representative of what humans are capable of.

+1
Only point I would add is to say to Hastur that these disillusioned fanatics have for the most part been educated in the West. Both the July 7th bomber and the Manchester bomber were born in England and went to school here.

[C-Mag]

+1
Only point I would add is to say to Hastur that these disillusioned fanatics have for the most part been educated in the West. Both the July 7th bomber and the Manchester bomber were born in England and went to school here.

You are providing evidence that Westernized Muslims do not in fact moderate, and are more likely to be radicalized killers.

[Hastur]

+1
Only point I would add is to say to Hastur that these disillusioned fanatics have for the most part been educated in the West. Both the July 7th bomber and the Manchester bomber were born in England and went to school here.

Same goes for the politicians I mentioned, the school managers and local politicians that set up the new rules for swim halls. Some of them even ethnic Swedes. Your point?

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

+1
Only point I would add is to say to Hastur that these disillusioned fanatics have for the most part been educated in the West. Both the July 7th bomber and the Manchester bomber were born in England and went to school here.

You are providing evidence that Westernized Muslims do not in fact moderate, and are more likely to be radicalized killers.

There is that...

But alternatively, in the West self criticism as well as criticism of governments, states and authority in general, is encouraged. This is, on balance, one of the great things about the west, but it can also be corrupted into radicalization of the soft-headed, dumb-shit suicide bombers by terrorist groups.

[Montegriffo]

+1
Only point I would add is to say to Hastur that these disillusioned fanatics have for the most part been educated in the West. Both the July 7th bomber and the Manchester bomber were born in England and went to school here.

You are providing evidence that Westernized Muslims do not in fact moderate, and are more likely to be radicalized killers.

Interpret it how you like, my point was that the refugees and immigrants which everyone thinks should be shunned and sent home don't appear to be carrying out these attacks but are busy rebuilding their lives.

You could also say it was evidence that Western values of freedom lead to the creation of more fanatics than unstable ME theocracies but I don't think either of us would want to back that interpretation.

[Hastur]

You also have the fact that there is a huge cost associated with taking in all those refugees. The last wave we took in in 2015 ended up costing us more than the combined budget for police and defence that year. We are a rich country but the money had to come from somewhere so it was mostly financed by cuts in the foreign aid programs for developing countries.

That aid was supposed to make the situation better in some of the countries where the refugees comes from.

When it comes to the ability to make life more bearable money goes alot further in a Somali village than in a suburb to Stockholm so you can guess what happened to effectiveness when it comes to how many more people were helped.

[Alexander PhiAlipson]

As far as Western culture being able to win out against Muslim culture--I agree that it would--by why should we have to fight it when denying it entry in the first place would be far easier? We don't have very many enclaves in the USA yet, but there are places where you may hear the call to prayer and listen to imams call for jihad. Every now and then the spawn of otherwise assimilated immigrants or refugees will take up the cause and run amok, so we must take them down and investigate their contacts. Strangely, it seems that just about every time one of these "losers" makes the headlines, it seems that they were already on Comey's watch-list; it may be that the FBI has been devoting too much of its tremendous resources elsewhere. And EVERY TIME there is a some sort of "incident" the same old assholes can't help but remind us not to leap to conclusions--that this may be the work of white nationalists. But it's never white nationalists. Hoaxers with spray paint grab the headlines, though the hoaxers themselves never do. Too many folk are eating the government/media issued blue pills.
Ah, but I'm reminded of a joke.

A cowboy, an American Indian, and a Muslim are seated together on a flight, making their final approach into New York.
"Ah, America, land of the free and the home of the brave," the cowboy says proudly.
The Indian, sadly drunk from firewater sighs, "America, where once we were many, but now we are few."
"Haha! America--now we were few, but soon we shall be many!" the Muslim says with a sinister smile.
"Only because we haven't started playing cowboys and Muslims yet...."

[SuburbanFarmer]

Why are you convinced Islamic values will win out in a free marketplace of ideas?

Personally, I am so convinced that western civilization is superior, that I am not concerned at all that it is incapable of winning once people have access to all the benefits of an open, secular society.

Now that's a good argument.

Do you have any data to support that is a growing trend?

Smitty once posted an interesting graph (that I am too lazy to find) showing that terrorist violence was, counter intuitive as it might seem given our exposure to it, on the decline. The evidence that western values are superior seems uncontroversial to me, but like any value statement is difficult to prove. As is the statement that the superior value system is destined to win... but abandoning those values to save them seems like a pyrrhic victory at best.

I think all of Hastur's concerns are completely valid, and there is certainly a lot that the people of western civilization need to do to protect the gains they have won over the past five or six centuries. The obvious, totally absurd, cognitive dissonance many people seem to have about criticizing the religion of peace and it's prophet (peace be upon him) is something that I find at least as disturbing as the most conservative member of this forum. But criticizing religious ideas has always been touchy, but we have over come it with the other Abrahamic religions.

There is a lot of validity to the claims of folks like Nuke who point out that criticism of Islam results in being called racist and fascist unfairly. But that position is rather weakened when those same people start openly saying legitimately racist and fascist bullshit along with their valid mockeries of Islamism. It helps confirm the very stupidest of left Islam apologists, and that is a fucking problem from where I stand...

but I don't know how to actually solve any of these problems. Fortunately, if all problems that I couldn't personally solve were intractable we would still be in the stone age, so I have good reason to believe that my mental limitations aren't broadly representative of what humans are capable of.

Good post.

[The Conservative]

As far as Western culture being able to win out against Muslim culture--I agree that it would--by why should we have to fight it when denying it entry in the first place would be far easier? We don't have very many enclaves in the USA yet, but there are places where you may hear the call to prayer and listen to imams call for jihad. Every now and then the spawn of otherwise assimilated immigrants or refugees will take up the cause and run amok, so we must take them down and investigate their contacts. Strangely, it seems that just about every time one of these "losers" makes the headlines, it seems that they were already on Comey's watch-list; it may be that the FBI has been devoting too much of its tremendous resources elsewhere. And EVERY TIME there is a some sort of "incident" the same old assholes can't help but remind us not to leap to conclusions--that this may be the work of white nationalists. But it's never white nationalists. Hoaxers with spray paint grab the headlines, though the hoaxers themselves never do. Too many folk are eating the government/media issued blue pills.
Ah, but I'm reminded of a joke.

A cowboy, an American Indian, and a Muslim are seated together on a flight, making their final approach into New York.
"Ah, America, land of the free and the home of the brave," the cowboy says proudly.
The Indian, sadly drunk from firewater sighs, "America, where once we were many, but now we are few."
"Haha! America--now we were few, but soon we shall be many!" the Muslim says with a sinister smile.
"Only because we haven't started playing cowboys and Muslims yet...."

Today it would be Solder vs Muslim... time to bring out the old plastic soldier and teach our children the right way of things

[Speaker to Animals]

+1
Only point I would add is to say to Hastur that these disillusioned fanatics have for the most part been educated in the West. Both the July 7th bomber and the Manchester bomber were born in England and went to school here.

Well, isn't that a great reason to stop importing Muslims.. Do you ever think this shit through to it's logical conclusion?