Daniel Shaver shooting

[Speaker to Animals]

There is a distinction, and it's the people who don't see the distinction who are the problem.

If I am not different than Haji, then the police are nothing more than an occupying force, and therefore my enemy. If they are my enemy and they can murder me with impunity, then I have no moral restraint from killing them too. How do you like them apples?

[Smitty-48]

The 66,000 non combatants in Iraq were not the enemy, and the Americans who killed them did not intend to murder them with malice, you have to make split second decisions, under extreme pressure, and you don't have hindsight to make judgements, and when you're in an environment where everyone is armed to the teeth, and you can't tell who is who in the moment, shit happens, that's just how it goes.

Sometimes you're too aggressive, sometimes you're not aggressive enough, but you can't know for sure, you just have to make a call, one way or the other, it's the quick and the dead, sometimes you make the right call, sometimes you don't.

[nmoore63]

I would counter that their military generalship is EXACTLY the problem.

Rules of engagement for a military occupational force, and that for a civilian police force working for the public are completely different.

Some want the police to risk to public to protect themselves. Others think the police's job is to protect the public.

There's no distinction at the tactical level, there are terrorists in Iraq, there are terrorists in the United States, and the American soldiers in Iraq, who killed 66,000 non combatants, we're trying to protect the public in Iraq as well, the terrorists in Iraq exploited that to their advantage, and the terrorists in the USA do the same.

It's the same Americans, you call them "heroes" when they do it in Iraq, you call them "psychopaths" when they do it in the USA, but it's the same guys, and at the tactical level, the rules of engagement are, in essence, the same.

Then I want them disbanded.

[Smitty-48]

Then I want them disbanded.

You want what you want when you want it, if you disbanded all the police forces in the USA, I don't think that would result in less people being shot mistakenly, unlike Fife, I don't personally think that private citizens would or could make better decisions in the same situations under the same pressures.

They're all Americans, they all have the same reasonable expectations of encountering guns in a confrontation, and they're all on the same hair trigger when that shit goes down.

[Speaker to Animals]

If this is an occupation, then it's war, and don't come crying to me when crooked, murderous cops start getting popped. Nor would I convict their vigilante killers in a jury.

Welcome to consequences, folks.

The only way this can even be made sort of right at this point is for somebody to pop this little cunt psychopath, and for a jury to refuse to convict his killer. Then, maybe certain types of people will begin to see the problem.

[nmoore63]

Then I want them disbanded.

You want what you want when you want it, if you disbanded all the police forces in the USA, I don't think that would result in less people being shot mistakenly, unlike Fife, I don't personally think that private citizens would or could make better decisions in the same situations under the same pressures.

Possible.

In this case there was no shots fired. No hostages.

I've been shot at before, would prefer not to have it happen again, but when lunatics like you argue that police tactical engagement here should be the same as military in an occupied zone, then its time to take the burden back on myself.

Sorry. The job of an officer to put to their life at risk in place of the public. Not the public at risk in place of their own.

Clearly you are not capable or willing to do the job asked

[Smitty-48]

When you watch the video, you don't have adrenaline in your system, so you're not actually seeing it as it was for the shooter in the moment, the cops are clearly battling the adrenal dump, and anybody whose felt it, knows that it alters your perceptions, autonomic responses kick in, you tunnel vision, your brain ignores certain aspects and focuses on the plausible threat above all else.

Are Delta Force Operators better trained to deal with it? Sure they are, but they cost millions to train, a city government could not afford Delta Force Operators to be answering every gun call that comes in over the radio.

What you're calling a "power trip" is really just the adrenal dump, and it requires a lot of training indeed, to control that precisely in split second decision scenarios, if you can do it, you're a world class operator, but the reality is, they don't grow on trees.

[Smitty-48]

It's like demanding that Joe Q. Civil Servant be like an NFL Quarterback, sure, everybody is pissed off when the QB throws an I-N-T, but go out there and try it some time, with the pass rush bearing down on you, and see how many passes you complete.

[Speaker to Animals]

When that argument works for the rest of the civilian population who do not wear police costumes, get back to me. Until then.. bitch, please.

[nmoore63]

When you watch the video, you don't have adrenaline in your system, so you're not actually seeing it as it was for the shooter in the moment, the cops are clearly battling the adrenal dump, and anybody whose felt it, knows that it alters your perceptions, autonomic responses kick in, you tunnel vision, your brain ignores certain aspects and focuses on the plausible threat above all else.

Are Delta Force Operators better trained to deal with it? Sure they are, but they cost millions to train, a city government could not afford Delta Force Operators to be answering every gun call that comes in over the radio.

What you're calling a "power trip" is really just the adrenal dump, and it requires a lot of training indeed, to control that precisely in split second decision scenarios, if you can do it, you're a world class operator, but the reality is, they don't grow on trees.

If the argument is that the training is insufficient. Then I can accept that. Fix the training.

If the argument is that's how it is, then no.

Suspect was in a position of no threat. You can train people to leave them there.