DACA

Okeefenokee
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Re: DACA

Post by Okeefenokee » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:59 pm

Last I checked, Mexico has state services for the needy. Any children born in Mexico who are deported back without any family or support fall within their jurisdiction.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: DACA

Post by Speaker to Animals » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:59 pm

Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:Maybe we should just trade Mexico 800,000 liberal women for the 800,000 DACA-eligible Mexican nationals.
They do love spring break in Cabo... :think:

Where is this outside-the-box thinking when we need it on the capitol, damnit! It's genius!

aprender a hablar español princesas

Okeefenokee
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Re: DACA

Post by Okeefenokee » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:01 pm

donde esta la zapateria
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.

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heydaralon
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Re: DACA

Post by heydaralon » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:05 pm

Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote:
heydaralon wrote:
Penner wrote:

I think there is a law stating that. Both Ted Cruz and Obama have at least one parent that is an American but Obama was actually born in Hawaii while Cruz was born in Canada.
Well sure, and I'm not arguing that either of those two people should not be or are not American citizens. I just don't think that two illegals should be able to have a kid that is born incidentally in the geographic boundaries of the United States and have that kid become a citizen.
I believe the term is Jus soli. I'm not a fan of that.
Citizenship inherited in the blood is just as stupid, and involves as much magical thinking, as citizenship granted by soil.

Fact is, citizenship is an artifice of human design and we can make it whatever we want it to be. We just have agree on what we want.
I disagree. Blood citizenship is indeed an arbitrary man made distinction, but it has the advantage of providing order to an existing society. Even though we all complain on here, most of us acknowledge that the US is a fundamentally good place to live. I have no idea how much illegal immigration will offset the equilibrium of a good society but it does have an effect. Imagine if we took a libertarian approach and removed the borders between US and Mexico? Would you feel safer, more secure in your job, more at one with world? Maybe you would. I don't know, but illegal immigration, especially when it happens too quickly, is like turning a country into a giant petri dish. Its a huge experiment, and no one, liberal or conservative
knows if the longterm outcome would be better or worse. If you really dislike our history, culture, and institutions, maybe you think its worth a shot. Personally, I like our country the way it is, despite its problems. I realize that I am sort of putting arguments in your mouth, because I don't know your immigration views, but that is my opinion.
Shikata ga nai

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Hanarchy Montanarchy
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Re: DACA

Post by Hanarchy Montanarchy » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:15 pm

heydaralon wrote:
Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote:
heydaralon wrote:
Well sure, and I'm not arguing that either of those two people should not be or are not American citizens. I just don't think that two illegals should be able to have a kid that is born incidentally in the geographic boundaries of the United States and have that kid become a citizen.
I believe the term is Jus soli. I'm not a fan of that.
Citizenship inherited in the blood is just as stupid, and involves as much magical thinking, as citizenship granted by soil.

Fact is, citizenship is an artifice of human design and we can make it whatever we want it to be. We just have agree on what we want.
I disagree. Blood citizenship is indeed an arbitrary man made distinction, but it has the advantage of providing order to an existing society. Even though we all complain on here, most of us acknowledge that the US is a fundamentally good place to live. I have no idea how much illegal immigration will offset the equilibrium of a good society but it does have an effect. Imagine if we took a libertarian approach and removed the borders between US and Mexico? Would you feel safer, more secure in your job, more at one with world? Maybe you would. I don't know, but illegal immigration, especially when it happens too quickly, is like turning a country into a giant petri dish. Its a huge experiment, and no one, liberal or conservative
knows if the longterm outcome would be better or worse. If you really dislike our history, culture, and institutions, maybe you think its worth a shot. Personally, I like our country the way it is, despite its problems. I realize that I am sort of putting arguments in your mouth, because I don't know your immigration views, but that is my opinion.
My views on immigration, writ large, are fungible.

As far as illegal behavior goes: rule of law, and then an extra helping of rule of law for good measure.

That being said, basing rights and privileges on bloodlines has a... checkered past that does not inspire confidence. There are plenty of reasons to question bloodline based policy, but probably not in this specific thread.

Specifically relating to DACA, children inheriting the guilt of their parents' crimes is a terrible idea, regardless of the soil over which they were popped out, or the content of the accompanying blood.
HAIL!

Her needs America so they won't just take his shit away like in some pussy non gun totting countries can happen.
-Hwen

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: DACA

Post by Speaker to Animals » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:20 pm

They are not inheriting guilt at all. They are not citizens. They don't belong here.

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Hanarchy Montanarchy
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Re: DACA

Post by Hanarchy Montanarchy » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:26 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:They are not inheriting guilt at all. They are not citizens. They don't belong here.
They are here because of crime committed by someone else.
HAIL!

Her needs America so they won't just take his shit away like in some pussy non gun totting countries can happen.
-Hwen

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MilSpecs
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Re: DACA

Post by MilSpecs » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:29 pm

Okeefenokee wrote:
DBTrek wrote:There it is folks, all DACA kids are orphans, and removing them from the US would instantly result in them "drowning" to death. Jesus.
pretty much
Incapable of recognizing a metaphor.
:royalty-queen:

heydaralon
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Re: DACA

Post by heydaralon » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:31 pm

Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote:
heydaralon wrote:
Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote:
Citizenship inherited in the blood is just as stupid, and involves as much magical thinking, as citizenship granted by soil.

Fact is, citizenship is an artifice of human design and we can make it whatever we want it to be. We just have agree on what we want.
I disagree. Blood citizenship is indeed an arbitrary man made distinction, but it has the advantage of providing order to an existing society. Even though we all complain on here, most of us acknowledge that the US is a fundamentally good place to live. I have no idea how much illegal immigration will offset the equilibrium of a good society but it does have an effect. Imagine if we took a libertarian approach and removed the borders between US and Mexico? Would you feel safer, more secure in your job, more at one with world? Maybe you would. I don't know, but illegal immigration, especially when it happens too quickly, is like turning a country into a giant petri dish. Its a huge experiment, and no one, liberal or conservative
knows if the longterm outcome would be better or worse. If you really dislike our history, culture, and institutions, maybe you think its worth a shot. Personally, I like our country the way it is, despite its problems. I realize that I am sort of putting arguments in your mouth, because I don't know your immigration views, but that is my opinion.
My views on immigration, writ large, are fungible.

As far as illegal behavior goes: rule of law, and then an extra helping of rule of law for good measure.

That being said, basing rights and privileges on bloodlines has a... checkered past that does not inspire confidence. There are plenty of reasons to question bloodline based policy, but probably not in this specific thread.

Specifically relating to DACA, children inheriting the guilt of their parents' crimes is a terrible idea, regardless of the soil over which they were popped out, or the content of the accompanying blood.
I am not saying they should be hanged or harmed, or separated from their family, just that they should be sent back to their parents country with their parents. Maybe to some people that seems like a punishment. To me its upholding those arbitrary distinctions we were talking about earlier. Pretty much everything Americans value is man made and magical. The way we agree that money has value. Our laws. Our Bill of Rights and Constitution. Our ideas about inheritance and marriage and private property. Many people see the border as an imaginary line that does not matter, but its just as valid as any of those other things I just mentioned. How would you feel if over the next five or ten years, 10 million illegals had children in the United States? I am using an extreme number for effect, but if that happened it would call into question a lot about our sovereignty, economy, how we run entitlement programs, our defense etc. Its not just being mean to children who crossed an invisible line.
I've argued this on here before, but if any of these nightmare climate change scenarios happen, millions and millions of people will attempt to flee the Southern Hemisphere and cross the rio grande or anywhere they can into America. Historically, such as in Lebanon or the Democratic Republic of Congo, this does not end well. In my opinion, we should start discussing how to protect our borders now, before we have to make even more difficult decisions.
Anyway, this post is getting long dude, so sorry about that. In your opinion, what should happen to these children? You seem to be admitting that their parents did break the law. If their parents broke the law, should they be sent back to Mexico? If so, couldn't you argue that you are punishing the children for their parents' crimes by separating them from the biological family? If you don't think the parents should be sent back, aren't you sort of rewarding them for breaking the law by allowing them to stay in a nicer country by taking advantage of our leniency?
I am not trying to give you trick questions or sound like an asshole, I am genuinely curious about your opinion on this.
Shikata ga nai

Okeefenokee
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Re: DACA

Post by Okeefenokee » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:38 pm

MilSpecs wrote:
Okeefenokee wrote:
DBTrek wrote:There it is folks, all DACA kids are orphans, and removing them from the US would instantly result in them "drowning" to death. Jesus.
pretty much
Incapable of recognizing a metaphor.
sending people back to the nation where they are citizens, and have assistance paid for by their fellow citizens, is a metaphor for drowning them.

your metaphors are bad, and you should feel bad.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.

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