The Right and the Left need each other - debate

[Smitty-48]

The mechanism by which the Confederates had achieved escape velocity from the Union, was not the slaves, it was the cotton gin, and slavery was not the problem, Southron autonomy was the problem, if these independant land owners of the Planting Aristocracy were able to have autonomy from the industrial power to the North, then the Industrialists couldn't control them, and as a result, couldn't stop them from being a competing hegemon on the continent going West, and the industrialists were not having that, and so control over the continent had to be reasserted, bringing these Confederates to heel, by force of arms, initially merely by police action, expecting little resistance, but the Confederates refused to capitulate, and so a cycle of escalation ensued, through Shiloh, to Antietam, at which point, the industrialists of the North invoked a total war of anihalation against the South, unconditional surrender therein.

[Montegriffo]

Progressive literally means change. Conservative literally means tradition. These are not pejorative terms. Why is there such resistance to the concept that they could be good or bad, depending on the context in which they're used? That's the entire premise of this debate!

No, progress means towards a destination, if that destination does not conserve the sovereignty of the individual against the prerogatives of a collective, then that progress is perjorative in the American context, if the progress does not preserve the blessing of liberty, of the individual above all else, then that progress is inherently un-American, literally, American means invidual liberty comes first and foremost, all collectives take a back seat, and individuals are ensured against being forced to subjegate themselves to the prerogatives of any collective, short of war to defend the republic itself, which by the way, is the only basis of income taxation.

I think definition 2 is what we are talking about here.

progress
noun
noun: progress
ˈprəʊɡrɛs/

1.
forward or onward movement towards a destination.
"the darkness did not stop my progress"
synonyms: forward movement, onward movement, progression, advance, advancement, headway, passage; going
"ceaseless rain made further progress impossible"
archaic
a state journey or official tour, especially by royalty.
plural noun: progresses
2.
development towards an improved or more advanced condition.
"we are making progress towards equal rights"
synonyms: development, advance, advancement, headway, step(s) forward, progression, improvement, betterment, growth; breakthrough
"the progress of medical science"

verb
verb: progress; 3rd person present: progresses; past tense: progressed; past participle: progressed; gerund or present participle: progressing
prəˈɡrɛs/

1.
move forward or onward in space or time.
"as the century progressed the quality of telescopes improved"
synonyms: go, make one's way, move, move forward, go forward, proceed, continue, advance, go on, make progress, make headway, press on, gain ground, push forward, go/forge ahead, work one's way
"they progressed slowly back along the grass"
antonyms: return
Astrology
calculate the position of (a planet) or of all the planets and coordinates of (a chart) according to the technique of progression.
2.
develop towards an improved or more advanced condition.
"work on the pond is progressing"
synonyms: develop, make progress, advance, make headway, take steps forward, make strides, get better, come on, come along, move on, get on, gain ground, shape up, improve, thrive, prosper, blossom, flourish; More

[Smitty-48]

Progressive literally means change. Conservative literally means tradition. These are not pejorative terms. Why is there such resistance to the concept that they could be good or bad, depending on the context in which they're used? That's the entire premise of this debate!

No, progress means towards a destination, if that destination does not conserve the sovereignty of the individual against the prerogatives of a collective, then that progress is perjorative in the American context, if the progress does not preserve the blessing of liberty, of the individual above all else, then that progress is inherently un-American, literally, American means invidual liberty comes first and foremost, all collectives take a back seat, and individuals are ensured against being forced to subjegate themselves to the prerogatives of any collective, short of war to defend the republic itself, which by the way, is the only basis of income taxation.

I think definition 2 is what we are talking about here.

Same applies, more advanced condition is a destination, America asserts that it is not acheived by subordinating the individual sovereigns to a collective, but rather by asserting the perogatives of the individual soevereign's against the collective's, in the name of God himself, in right of everyman to be a king, with no exceptions, short of war to defend the republic itself, which by the way, is why America must remain in a state of perpetual war, in order to prop up the collective of the leftist welfare state, incited by the New Deal, which had to be bailed out by World War Two, otherwise known as the Welfare-Warfare State.

[Okeefenokee]

The mechanism by which the Confederates had achieved escape velocity from the Union, was not the slaves, it was the cotton gin, and slavery was not the problem, Southron autonomy was the problem, if these independant land owners of the Planting Aristocracy were able to have autonomy from the industrial power to the North, then the Industrialists couldn't control them, and as a result, couldn't stop them from being a competing hegemon on the continent going West, and the industrialists were not having that, and so control over the continent had to be reasserted, bringing these Confederates to heel, by force of arms, initially merely by police action, expecting little resistance, but the Confederates refused to capitulate, and so a cycle of escalation ensued, through Shiloh, to Antietam, at which point, the industrialists of the North invoked a total war of anihalation against the South, unconditional surrender therein.

You could have jumped in any time I was having this debate in the last five years. Glad to see you here now, though. Hell, Cid straight up called me racist for questioning the dogma.

[StCapps]

The mechanism by which the Confederates had achieved escape velocity from the Union, was not the slaves, it was the cotton gin, and slavery was not the problem, Southron autonomy was the problem, if these independant land owners of the Planting Aristocracy were able to have autonomy from the industrial power to the North, then the Industrialists couldn't control them, and as a result, couldn't stop them from being a competing hegemon on the continent going West, and the industrialists were not having that, and so control over the continent had to be reasserted, bringing these Confederates to heel, by force of arms, initially merely by police action, expecting little resistance, but the Confederates refused to capitulate, and so a cycle of escalation ensued, through Shiloh, to Antietam, at which point, the industrialists of the North invoked a total war of anihalation against the South, unconditional surrender therein.

You could have jumped in any time I was having this debate in the last five years. Glad to see you here now, though. Hell, Cid straight up called me racist for questioning the dogma.

Pretty sure we've all been called racist for knowing our history on this tip. Comes with the territory.

[MilSpecs]

No, progress means towards a destination, if that destination does not conserve the sovereignty of the individual against the prerogatives of a collective, then that progress is perjorative in the American context, if the progress does not preserve the blessing of liberty, of the individual above all else, then that progress is inherently un-American, literally, American means invidual liberty comes first and foremost, all collectives take a back seat, and individuals are ensured against being forced to subjegate themselves to the prerogatives of any collective, short of war to defend the republic itself, which by the way, is the only basis of income taxation.

Americans are capable of voluntarily giveing up some individual liberty for a better country. We have Social Security. We have a progressive tax policy. We're not a libertarian society. We are capable of self-sacrifice. This isn't the wild west or the Gangs of NY anymore.

[Smitty-48]

No, progress means towards a destination, if that destination does not conserve the sovereignty of the individual against the prerogatives of a collective, then that progress is perjorative in the American context, if the progress does not preserve the blessing of liberty, of the individual above all else, then that progress is inherently un-American, literally, American means invidual liberty comes first and foremost, all collectives take a back seat, and individuals are ensured against being forced to subjegate themselves to the prerogatives of any collective, short of war to defend the republic itself, which by the way, is the only basis of income taxation.

Americans are capable of voluntarily giveing up some individual liberty for a better country. We have Social Security. We have a progressive tax policy. We're not a libertarian society. We are capable of self-sacrifice. This isn't the wild west or the Gangs of NY anymore.

Capable where willing, but not bound to where not willing, and what has happened, is that the Welfare-Warfare State incited by the New Deal and maintained to prop up the Great Society, has become de facto Taxation Without Representation, and so that is inciting a revolt, which is continuing to escalate, both Left and Right in fact, against the Centre.

The Right against the Welfare, the Left against the Warfare, but they are in fact revolting against the same thing, and ultimately, the Left is responsible for it, by New Deal and Great Society to a Perpetual War, the Warfare is to prop up the Welfare, without the Welfare, America could stand down from the Perpetual War and demobilize therein.

[Smitty-48]

Oh and before you point to other Western countries who have the Welfare without the Warfare, just realize that our Welfare states are also propped up by your Warfare. You're not actually defending us from threats, but you are propping us up by fabricating threats to maintain the Perpetual War.

[Martin Hash]

Smitty is killing it.

[skankhunt42]

Oh and before you point to other Western countries who have the Welfare without the Warfare, just realize that our Welfare states are also propped up by your Warfare. You're not actually defending us from threats, but you are propping us up by fabricating threats to maintain the Purpetual War.

Can we put that on a billboard in every major city in the United States? Jesus. Fucking. Christ. Bravo sir.