The Destroyer of All Western Values

[heydaralon]

Whenever the US or Britain intervenes in the third world, there are always 2 different camps. The first camp says that they intervene for ideological reasons. For instance, they will say Mossadegh was getting too close to the Tudeh (Iran communists) or Arbenz is steering Guatemala too close to the left and gives Marxism a stronghold in Central America. The second camp always says that ideology is irrelevant and the West intervenes for cynical economic reasons. BP didn't want Iran nationalizing oil, or United Fruit Company hated Arbenz. I'm sure there is a mixture of both, but in your opinion which reason has a bigger influence on our foreign policy, ideological or cynical economics?

Ideology; The Empire of Liberty has a Manifest Destiny to Free the Slaves.

I tend to think in a lot of cases its ideology at the top and economics underneath. I think the top guys in Bush Admin were ideologues, they were trying to bring PNAC to life, and fight rogue states, defeat the bad guy etc. But there clearly were people close to the Administration not making the decision for war who saw the opportunity to make a shitload of money. Then you have guys like Rumsfeld who were just power hungry and didn't really care about the ideology at all. He just wanted to rule. I've never bought the simplistic War for oil slogan that the many protesters tossed around. I think many people at the top actually drank the NeoCon Koolaid. If they were serious about Democracy in Iraq, invading for the oil never made sense anyway, because a democratic Iraq would vote to have more control over its oil.

Of course, Cheney had ties to Haliburton, which made truckloads of money so my theory that the war was ideological is not airtight.

[Smitty-48]

I don't think the American Religion conflicts with making a shitload of money, it's complimentary.

In the defense of liberty, making a shitload of money; is no vice.

[heydaralon]

rolls eyes and turns away

You don't think ideology plays a role in important decisions? You are more of an economics guy I take it?

[Smitty-48]

Why do you think Haliburton made truckloads of money? 7-9% margin is "truckloads"? Meh.

[heydaralon]

Why do you think Haliburton made truckloads of money? 7-9% margin is "truckloads"? Meh.

I mean they got about almost $40 billion in contracts over ten years. Those margins aren't as fat as I thought, but its certainly nothing to sneeze at. I imagine that every defense contractor overcharges the shit out of the government too, though I could be wrong about that.

[Smitty-48]

Why do you think Haliburton made truckloads of money? 7-9% margin is "truckloads"? Meh.

I mean they got about almost $40 billion in contracts over ten years. Those margins aren't as fat as I thought, but its certainly nothing to sneeze at. I imagine that every defense contractor overcharges the shit out of the government too, though I could be wrong about that.

For war operations it was cost plus contracts, so you think they falsified their costs and pocketed the difference? Who pockets? How? Embezzlement?

I've never bought the simplistic War for oil slogan that the many protesters tossed around.

How is equally simplistic "War for Haliburton" slogan different?

[heydaralon]

Why do you think Haliburton made truckloads of money? 7-9% margin is "truckloads"? Meh.

I mean they got about almost $40 billion in contracts over ten years. Those margins aren't as fat as I thought, but its certainly nothing to sneeze at. I imagine that every defense contractor overcharges the shit out of the government too, though I could be wrong about that.

For war operations it was cost plus contracts, so you think they falsified their costs and pocketed the difference? Who pockets? How? Embezzlement?

I've heard stories about how we sent literal pallets of money too various regional leaders of Iraq. Many of those pallets were given away to the Kurds or whoever and the money was never spent as intended. Some disappeared without a trace. If that kind of thing is happening, it wouldn't surprise me at all if contractors were inflating costs, or possibly making up entire orders, and charging the government, even I though don't have any evidence for this. Supposedly real estate in baghdad is sky high right now even though it is in a dogshit country, because all the Iraqi politicians and people who have profited off the war and change of power use it to launder and hide their money. I wonder if contractors bought a bunch of Iraqi property.

In Florida where I live, people pull that kind shit all the time. Got some real pieces of shit in this state. I've read stories about doctors and hospitals in Florida scamming government medicaid and medicare for services and house visits they never fulfilled. Hell, our governor Rick Scott was doing that. He basically stepped down as CEO of a Hospital to avoid the penalty of losing federal aid for 20 years if convicted. Then he set a series of walk in medical centers. Then he ran for governor and won. If people are brazenly stealing from the US government in the United States, I am very skeptical they behave better when they are overseas with even less supervision. I'm not an expert on white collar crime so I don't know how a contractor would hide money like that. It seems like too good an opportunity to pass up though.

[Smitty-48]

The pallets of cash was not Haliburton, not contractor at all, Federal Government; US Federal Reserve to US Air Force to Iraqis.

[heydaralon]

The pallets of cash was not Haliburton, not contractor at all, Federal Government; US Federal Reserve to US Air Force to Iraqis.

Actually I'm making it sound worse than it is because I think that some of that money was taken from Iraqi assets in the United States. Its ok to be careless with Saddam's money I guess. When I read about I could not believe there wasn't more oversight though.

[Smitty-48]

If that kind of thing is happening, it wouldn't surprise me at all if contractors were inflating costs, or possibly making up entire orders, and charging the government, even I though don't have any evidence for this.

Contractor fraud exists, but, how is it motivation for war? No "truckloads" of cash, nickle and dime crime, can't be reported as profit, doesn't go to shareholder/stock price, how would it benefit Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, for starting the war? They don't cash in, why would they want to enable criminals pocketing taxpayer dollars?

Also, if profit was motive, why did Cheney donate all post tax proceeds from Haliburton stock options to Capital Partners for Education, George Washington University Medical Faculty, and the University of Wyoming?