The Destroyer of All Western Values

[heydaralon]

Remember in that Nixon movie when Hoover ate the fruit out of the Kitchen boy's mouth? Did he act like that in real life?
Was it ever confirmed he was actually gay? In the movie it was an open secret. I wasn't a fan of the DiCaprio movie about Hoover. It could have been so much more.

[heydaralon]

Nah, that wasn't it, Reagan actually came off as kind of cartoonish, like some dinosaur from the 1950's, but that was his main selling point, because Americans were burnt out after the 70's, they were just want to withdraw into the fantasy world of the Nostalgia for an America that Never Was.

It also helped that Reagan pretty much caved into every entrenched interest there was rather than follow through on his agenda, and so turned out to be not as scary as they had all surmised based on his fiery campaign rhetoric, Big Government Nanny State Tax and Spend Republican FTW.

He went totally Keynesian, government spending went through the roof, the trickle down, was coming from the Feds, after assailing Carter for "government spending!", under Reagan it promptly increased by 60%; Flying around in a helicopter dropping pork on districts to buy votes.

Carter wouldn't, or couldn't get the pork flowing to the districts, Reagan would and could, and he called it Morning in America.

After running as a Barry Goldwater-esque Firebrand, upon being faced with a Democrat Congress once in office, Reagan pretty much signed off on everything they wanted and more, this bought him a lot of slack, the Congress which Jimmy Carter could not get along with, became Ronald Reagan's new best friends.

Carter was trying to force changes on entrenched interests, but he couldn't sell it, and he went to war with his own party, and then they stonewalled and blamed him for everything, this became the media narrative, and Americans bought it, Reagan on the other hand, took the easy path, just give them all what they want, regardless of fiscal restraint, and the net result was that he was insulated, rahter than being attacked, he was given a pass.

He really only got into trouble, when he was flowing all this money to the Contradora Death Squads in Latin America, and the Congress wanted to know what all the money was being spent on, and when they couldn't get a satisfactory answer, they cut him off. Then of course, he went behind their backs to Ollie North and the Iranians, but when all that blew up, rather than be impeached, people just felt sorry for him, because at this point he was coming off as a dottering old man who couldn't tie his own shoe laces.

Once in hot water, he played it up of course, but we've since found out that behind the scenes, he was pretty much completely out-of-er most of the time, remembering things that didn't happen, forgeting things that just happened, withdrawing into a fantasy world, etc.

Obviously by the time he was diagnosed with Alzeheimers it was already clear he had Alzeheimers, repeating himself during speeches and whatnot, his speech was changing, he was dottering very perceptiblty, he was degenerating rather precipitously at the end, but if you go back with that hindsight, and look through the whole second term, you see the signs much earlier in retrospect.

If Iran-Contra had gone down in the first term, I think he definitely could have gotten impeached, I mean, pretty serious charges by any measure, High Crimes and Misdemeanors on the face of it, bad as anything Nixon did, but because it happened so late in the second term when he was so clearly out-of-er, it was kind of like "ah, poor ol' fella, he didn't know what he was doing, just let him walk..."

Nobody ever cut Tricky Dick any slack, but Tricky Dutch charmed them all into a get out of jail free pass.

What do you think about Reagan's actions in Central America? Was that another misreading, an extension of the domino theory folly in Vietnam, or was that a valid strategic action? The right wing people there were fucked up, but the lefties in Central and South America were stacking bodies up to the ceiling also.

[Smitty-48]

Remember in that Nixon movie when Hoover ate the fruit out of the Kitchen boy's mouth? Did he act like that in real life?
Was it ever confirmed he was actually gay? In the movie it was an open secret. I wasn't a fan of the DiCaprio movie about Hoover. It could have been so much more.

No way for me to know, but if Hoover was gay, I don't think he was like that, if he was gay, then basically he had a long time de facto gay marriage to Clyde Tolson, whom he was inseparable from for forty years, and to whom Hoover left his entire estate, to wit, even if gay, I don't buy Hoover as the gay orgy type.

[heydaralon]

Remember in that Nixon movie when Hoover ate the fruit out of the Kitchen boy's mouth? Did he act like that in real life?
Was it ever confirmed he was actually gay? In the movie it was an open secret. I wasn't a fan of the DiCaprio movie about Hoover. It could have been so much more.

No way for me to know, but if Hoover was gay, I don't think he was like that, if he was gay, then basically he had a long time de facto gay marriage to Clyde Tolson, whom he was inseperable from for froty years and to whom Hoover left his entire estate, to wit, even if gay, I don't buy Hoover as the gay orgy type.

Yeah even people in the FBI were scratching their heads at the whole Tolson thing. They knew something was up.

[Smitty-48]

What do you think about Reagan's actions in Central America? Was that another misreading, an extension of the domino theory folly in Vietnam, or was that a valid strategic action? The right wing people there were fucked up, but the lefties in Central and South America were stacking bodies up to the ceiling also.

Well, the likes of the Contras were beneath America, I don't think America should consort with those sorts of cretins, if you're going to do it, then just do it, don't send in the Contras, send in the Marines.

If it doesn't reach the threshold of needing to send in the Marines, then just let Mr. Ivan have it, what's he gonna do with it, invade Wisconsin? Mr. Ivan has Nicarugua? Whatevs, Mr. Ivan, enjoy. What the fuck does America want with Nicaragua?

Mr. Ivan had ballistic missile submarines in the Yankee Box just off Bermuda, if Mr. Ivan is game for trying to take a drink from the Mississipi, surely he's not coming by way of Nicaragua.

If the Congress of the United States of America feels the need to topple the regime in Managua, they can declare war anytime they please, but if it is such a minor issue as to turn it over to an insane clown posse like the Contras, then cleary it was never worth the trouble in the first place, cause that shit is more trouble than it's worth.

[heydaralon]

What do you think about Reagan's actions in Central America? Was that another misreading, an extension of the domino theory folly in Vietnam, or was that a valid strategic action? The right wing people there were fucked up, but the lefties in Central and South America were stacking bodies up to the ceiling also.

Well, the likes of the Contras were beneath America, I don't think America should consort with those sorts of cretins, if you're going to do it, then just do it, don't send in the Contras, send in the Marines.

If it doesn't reach the threshold of needing to send in the Marines, then just let Mr. Ivan have it, what's he gonna do with it, invade Wisconsin? Mr. Ivan has Nicarugua? Whatevs, Mr. Ivan, enjoy. What the fuck does America want with Nicaragua?

Mr. Ivan had ballistic missile submarines in the Yankee Box just off Bermuda, if Mr. Ivan is game for trying to take a drink from the Mississipi, surely he's not coming by way of Nicaragua.

If the Congress of the United States of America feels the need to topple the regime in Managua, they can declare war anytime they please, but if it is such a minor issue as to turn it over to an insane clown posse like the Contras, then cleary it was never worth the trouble in the first place, cause that shit is more trouble than it's worth.

Whenever the US or Britain intervenes in the third world, there are always 2 different camps. The first camp says that they intervene for ideological reasons. For instance, they will say Mossadegh was getting too close to the Tudeh (Iran communists) or Arbenz is steering Guatemala too close to the left and gives Marxism a stronghold in Central America. The second camp always says that ideology is irrelevant and the West intervenes for cynical economic reasons. BP didn't want Iran nationalizing oil, or United Fruit Company hated Arbenz. I'm sure there is a mixture of both, but in your opinion which reason has a bigger influence on our foreign policy, ideological or cynical economics?

[SuburbanFarmer]

Leans forward with interest...

[Smitty-48]

Whenever the US or Britain intervenes in the third world, there are always 2 different camps. The first camp says that they intervene for ideological reasons. For instance, they will say Mossadegh was getting too close to the Tudeh (Iran communists) or Arbenz is steering Guatemala too close to the left and gives Marxism a stronghold in Central America. The second camp always says that ideology is irrelevant and the West intervenes for cynical economic reasons. BP didn't want Iran nationalizing oil, or United Fruit Company hated Arbenz. I'm sure there is a mixture of both, but in your opinion which reason has a bigger influence on our foreign policy, ideological or cynical economics?

Ideology; The Empire of Liberty has a Manifest Destiny to Free the Slaves.

[SuburbanFarmer]

rolls eyes and turns away

[Smitty-48]

The American Religion trumps all, it is the underlying motivation for everything, all else comes after as byproduct.