How's that Obamacare Repeal Working Out For You?

[Speaker to Animals]

Ignoring completely what competition does to supply.

Anyway, I'm for total eradication of the state in all matters, not just "healthcare." Half-measures are interesting academically, I suppose. But whatever comes out of Washington is not designed to help out the working Joes, bet that.

It doesn't work that way with health care. Get real, dude. Costs are contained by organizing demand and negotiating against insurers no differently than unions negotiate with corporations.

If you want to maximize health care advances, then go market-based. If you want to contain costs, then go less market-based. You increase one by diminishing the other. This is why the libertarian is as batshit crazy on this issue as the socialists. You cannot simultaneously maximize both. You need to balance them somehow.

The ultimate in cost-saving health care is at the VA hospitals. Lots of veterans are dying for lack of advanced health care and no access to more recent drugs. Maximizing health care options comes from spending a fuck ton of money on private insurance, but costs are anything but contained.

[Fife]

OK buddy.

[Speaker to Animals]

This is what I find so utterly stupid about this debate.

Capitalist solutions to health care can and do offer the best possible health care, but only to those who can afford it because costs are not contained at all.

Socialist solutions to health care offer the widest access to health care because costs are contained pretty well, but the quality of the health care is garbage, even to the point where the English are murdering sick babies before parents can get them to better hospitals and save their babies' lives.

Yet all I see in these debates are socialists arguing their strategy will maximize health care quality and capitalists arguing their strategy will minimize costs. The fuck? People are delusional on this topic.

When you max out on either end, you get more people dying for lack of health care, either because they cannot afford it (as we saw prior to Obamacare) or because the socialized medicine system cannot possibly provide it (as we see in England or our own VA system).

If your goal, instead, is to maximize the number of people who receive treatment for illnesses (not to maximize coverage or quality), then it's obvious that you want neither solution in a strict sense.

[Montegriffo]

the English are murdering sick babies before parents can get them to better hospitals and save their babies' lives.

FAKE NEWS.
As you well know, there was no hospital or clinic offering life saving treatment.
Please stop using crass words like ''murder'' to advance your pro-life baby zombie agenda.
The difficult decisions made in the Charlie Gard case were made in the best interests of Charlie not his grieving parents or their Catholic sponsors.

[Speaker to Animals]

the English are murdering sick babies before parents can get them to better hospitals and save their babies' lives.

FAKE NEWS.
As you well know, there was no hospital or clinic offering life saving treatment.
Please stop using crass words like ''murder'' to advance your pro-life baby zombie agenda.
The difficult decisions made in the Charlie Gard case were made in the best interests of Charlie not his grieving parents or their Catholic sponsors.

There was.

I was waiting for el hermano loco numero dos to come in here.

[Montegriffo]

the English are murdering sick babies before parents can get them to better hospitals and save their babies' lives.

FAKE NEWS.
As you well know, there was no hospital or clinic offering life saving treatment.
Please stop using crass words like ''murder'' to advance your pro-life baby zombie agenda.
The difficult decisions made in the Charlie Gard case were made in the best interests of Charlie not his grieving parents or their Catholic sponsors.

There was.

I was waiting for el hermano loco numero dos to come in here.

There was not.
The Vatican funded clinic in Italy that the family wanted to send Charlie to didn't even have access to his medical records at the time they offered to take him.
They never even claimed to have a life-saving treatment to offer Charlie.
All they had was life support machines to keep the little zombie baby alive so Jesus wouldn't get upset.

Doesn't matter how many times you repeat this lie, it will always be a lie and I will always point it out.

[Speaker to Animals]

Which baby? I recall your government murdering two babies. The first one was offered treatment in New York. The other in Italy.

[Fife]

Slaves don't get to choose their own "healthcare."

We all understand the lesson of this thread, right?

[Speaker to Animals]

Thought experiment:

Allow employees to choose between taking a voucher check to apply to private insurance on the open market or to accept their employer's plan. What do you think the average employee at a Fortune 500 company is going to choose? I.e. would he get a better plan through the company negotiating directly with an insurer or going to an open market where has ZERO LEVERAGE.

[Haumana]

Thought experiment:

Allow employees to choose between taking a voucher check to apply to private insurance on the open market or to accept their employer's plan. What do you think the average employee at a Fortune 500 company is going to choose? I.e. would he get a better plan through the company negotiating directly with an insurer or going to an open market where has ZERO LEVERAGE.

Zero leverage? That sounds quite like the Remainers argument. Isn't that voucher times everyone a form a leverage? It also appears to unchain the employee from the employer.