Another School Shooting

nmoore63
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Re: Another School Shooting

Post by nmoore63 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:23 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:
nmoore63 wrote:
DrYouth wrote:The question is can we establish meaningful social roles in our western civilization that has taken the cult of individualism to these extremes.
I don't get to heaven based on someone else's soul.

Not strictly correct. It's a collective effort. Make no effort to also help your brother escape sin, and you turned your back on God.

Individualism is not really a Christian concept at all.
Yes, but only if one has the choice and then choices to make the effort.
No choice, defeats the whole thing.
None of this all robots go to heaven business.

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Fife
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Re: Another School Shooting

Post by Fife » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:49 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:
nmoore63 wrote:
DrYouth wrote:The question is can we establish meaningful social roles in our western civilization that has taken the cult of individualism to these extremes.
I don't get to heaven based on someone else's soul.

Not strictly correct. It's a collective effort. Make no effort to also help your brother escape sin, and you turned your back on God.

Individualism is not really a Christian concept at all.
Wait. Who are the other people (or the person), I, as an individual, need to get help from before I can have Christ let me accept me salvation?

Are you saying that salvation is something that I can't get done between myself and Christ?

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Another School Shooting

Post by Speaker to Animals » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:57 pm

Fife wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:
nmoore63 wrote: I don't get to heaven based on someone else's soul.

Not strictly correct. It's a collective effort. Make no effort to also help your brother escape sin, and you turned your back on God.

Individualism is not really a Christian concept at all.
Wait. Who are the other people (or the person), I, as an individual, need to get help from before I can have Christ let me accept me salvation?

Are you saying that salvation is something that I can't get done between myself and Christ?

For starters, start praying for Flip.

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Fife
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Re: Another School Shooting

Post by Fife » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:06 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:
Fife wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:

Not strictly correct. It's a collective effort. Make no effort to also help your brother escape sin, and you turned your back on God.

Individualism is not really a Christian concept at all.
Wait. Who are the other people (or the person), I, as an individual, need to get help from before I can have Christ let me accept me salvation?

Are you saying that salvation is something that I can't get done between myself and Christ?

For starters, start praying for Flip.
I am man.

Shit this is a sad night. It just seems like yesterday I was talking with him about that Fremantle book.

Hwen Hoshino
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Re: Another School Shooting

Post by Hwen Hoshino » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:09 am

BjornP wrote:
Hwen Hoshino wrote:
They cannot read... You gonna trust them? Also the civilization could be more flexible about lot of things. Just let people work if they can do a job with less education etc...

Well if you don't live in a tribe your lifespan is longer and thereofore you have time to figure out the problem.

There is nothing soulless about following some asshole war leader? Working on the field like serfs did? What is soulles about everyone being literate and being able to mass share art?
You do realize that being part of a tribe isn't equal to being an iliterate warmongering barbarian, right? Or for that matter, that serfdom wasn't a feature in tribalistic societies, at all? An ethnic group having a sense of kinship with each other is a tribe. Doesn't mean it can't be civilized. Writing, education, science, government... none of it is anathema to tribal society.

Nor is civilization at all opposed to warmongering. In fact, the most warlike, brutal and savage behaviors known to man were commited by those we call civilized peoples who had their own writing systems and art: Assyrians, Sumerians, Egyptians, Phonecians, Greeks, Macedonians, Romans, Parthians, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Indians, Aztec, Inca, Maya... they all followed war leaders, and while not all may have been literate in all of those civilization, they did share art, and at least they had writing systems or some forms of specialized education system.
Any tribes looking great out there now?

Why wouldn't slavery be a feature? It was a feature of more advanced societies.

Why is nobody calling themselves tribe exactly in that case?

I never claimed civilization is milk and honey.

Speaker to Animals wrote:
nmoore63 wrote:
DrYouth wrote:The question is can we establish meaningful social roles in our western civilization that has taken the cult of individualism to these extremes.
I don't get to heaven based on someone else's soul.

Not strictly correct. It's a collective effort. Make no effort to also help your brother escape sin, and you turned your back on God.

Individualism is not really a Christian concept at all.
Fuck thst shit in that case.

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Another School Shooting

Post by Speaker to Animals » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:13 am

Hey, Hell is full of individualists and libertarians. Make yourself at home.

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BjornP
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Re: Another School Shooting

Post by BjornP » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:37 am

Hwen Hoshino wrote: Any tribes looking great out there now?

Why wouldn't slavery be a feature? It was a feature of more advanced societies.

Why is nobody calling themselves tribe exactly in that case?

I never claimed civilization is milk and honey.
I find my own tribe to be pretty good. Why on Earth would slavery be a feature of modern day tribal society and sense of ethnic belonging? Do you imagine that we currently keep slaves in Europe, or something? :roll:
Fame is not flattery. Respect is not agreement.

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DrYouth
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Re: Another School Shooting

Post by DrYouth » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:11 am

BjornP wrote: "Back to"? :| So, having an ethnicity, being part of a culture, that's something what... backwards, primitive? And rejecting that is... "progress"? I'm part of the tribe of Danes. Doesn't exclude me from wanting to mass cooperate with any other tribes/nations/ethnicities that exist in the world or the governments that represent them. Doesn't even exclude me from accepting into my tribe those want to become fellow, new tribesmen (provided they accept their new tribe's primacy), no matter where they originally come from.

It has been the desire for empire and universalism at gunpoint (and swordpoint) that has more lives on its conscience than the sense of loyalty to one's own tribe. That, and the desire by kings and nobility for land they claimed their family had a claim to.

You're in effect arguing that if a people, an ethnic group, is different from some other ethnic group, that in itself is civilizational "doom", that peoples being different from each other is "nothing to strive for". That loyalty to one's own group, precludes friendly assocation with those outside own's group. Are you more loyal to your own family, or that of some Canadian family you don't even know? Presumebly your own, correct? Does that mean you're likely to murder that other family when you're both reaching for the same, last pack of bananas down at the grocery store or are you - :o - capable of acting civilized to each despite feeling more loyalty to your own group than to the other's group? Amazing how that works, huh? Well, that's how it is for those of who don't actually see our ethnicities, our tribes and our sense of loyalty to it, as "backwards".

Your conclusions are built up of fallacies and ahistorical assumptions, DrY. Rethink them.
I've given this some thought Bjorn.

I'll give my personal example.

My ethnicity is Spanish on my Dad's side and German on my Mom's.
When I visit Spain I envy my cousin's sense of ethnic identity.
But even this is a hodgepodge. My cousins dance Flamenco which is a gypsy based folk dance. They play Spanish guitar an instrument brought to Spain by the Moors. The culture in Andalucía is heavily influenced by it's Moorish occupation. The Catholic Church is important but currently only women attend church for some reason.
My mother's side has a strong German identity, but as you know that has been watered down post WW2... even that is mixed as my maternal grandmother was Swiss. My German cousins moved from the north of Germany to the south and feel lost in the strong regional identity of Bayern. My Swiss cousins have a very strong Swiss identity... but are struggling with the high degree of social change in that nation... they feel lost in the shuffle between smaller cultural identities within Switzerland.
So what tribe would I identify with? My Canadian identity is what I actually identify with most strongly. I love this country. This hardly seems like a tribal identity... but it fills a strong role for me. I can't even imagine what would happen if that collapsed... Would I start to identify with my regional location... probably over time... but this would not grow deep roots for some time. We've only lived here (interior British Columbia) for just over a decade.
Deep down tho, I still thirst to kill you and eat you. Ultra Chimp can't help it.. - Smitty

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BjornP
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Re: Another School Shooting

Post by BjornP » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:16 am

DrYouth wrote: I've given this some thought Bjorn.

I'll give my personal example.

My ethnicity is Spanish on my Dad's side and German on my Mom's.
When I visit Spain I envy my cousin's sense of ethnic identity.
But even this is a hodgepodge. My cousins dance Flamenco which is a gypsy based folk dance. They play Spanish guitar an instrument brought to Spain by the Moors. The culture in Andalucía is heavily influenced by it's Moorish occupation. The Catholic Church is important but currently only women attend church for some reason.
My mother's side has a strong German identity, but as you know that has been watered down post WW2... even that is mixed as my maternal grandmother was Swiss. My German cousins moved from the north of Germany to the south and feel lost in the strong regional identity of Bayern. My Swiss cousins have a very strong Swiss identity... but are struggling with the high degree of social change in that nation... they feel lost in the shuffle between smaller cultural identities within Switzerland.
So what tribe would I identify with? My Canadian identity is what I actually identify with most strongly. I love this country. This hardly seems like a tribal identity... but it fills a strong role for me. I can't even imagine what would happen if that collapsed... Would I start to identify with my regional location... probably over time... but this would not grow deep roots for some time. We've only lived here (interior British Columbia) for just over a decade.
Your tribe is who you feel loyalty and kinship to, who you feel beholden to sacrifice for - besides yourself and your own family. If that's Canadian, your tribe's Canadian. Ethnic identities on this side of the Atlantic and on your side of the Atlantic are different for obvious historical-cultural reasons, but you're as human as everyone else, and so as much a social animal as anyone else. Tribe is community, loyalty, kinship, an alliance of families. If those are sentiments you direct at being Canadian, then it should be obvious what tribe you are. Canadian is more of a tribal federation, technically, but as long as you have a shared identity that isn't simply judicial, what you have is a tribe.

You are not Spanish unless the Spanish of Spain consider you Spanish, not German unless Germans of Germany consider you German. You are Canadian with a Spanish, German, and Swiss ancestry. A Canadian or American with Danish ancestors, may count as "ethnically Danish" to other Americans or Canadian, but only to them, and not to Danes, just like your "Irish" North Americans are not Irish and your Poles not Poles. Not unless they keep alive their culture, language, customs and traditions. If not, they are simply Canadian or American. When they no longer live the life of their old culture, they are no longer part of the old culture. They're just the descendents of former members of tribesmembers. Who they are instead...? Not my business to figure out.
Fame is not flattery. Respect is not agreement.

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MilSpecs
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Re: Another School Shooting

Post by MilSpecs » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:47 am

DrY, don’t you consider yourself Spanish-Canadian? A distinct culture in itself?
:royalty-queen: