Another School Shooting

[DrYouth]

The cult of individualism includes distrust in leadership.

Being a warrior means trusting leadership and not second guessing it.

We have lost the idea of this completely... almost universally.

Even on the right we seem to want "no leaders, just leave us alone"... it seems this is one thing the left and right have in common... a deep distrust in any form of leadership...

And that is sad compared to tribal warfare?

We have traded one problem for another.

Modern civilization has brought peace and prosperity with the price of soullessness.

Tribal societies often are reluctant to make the trade and stick with the tribe over "modernity".

If you happen to suffer from PTSD, depression or the many other maladies that the west suffers more than tribal societies do... you might also wonder how good a deal it is...

[DBTrek]

Or ... if your modern society is full of narcissistic, mentally weak, assholes but you see and interact with tribes of people who seem to have good life perspective and are well grounded, you might also question if having an iPhone was worth the trade.

[Hwen Hoshino]

The cult of individualism includes distrust in leadership.

Being a warrior means trusting leadership and not second guessing it.

We have lost the idea of this completely... almost universally.

Even on the right we seem to want "no leaders, just leave us alone"... it seems this is one thing the left and right have in common... a deep distrust in any form of leadership...

And that is sad compared to tribal warfare?

We have traded one problem for another.

Modern civilization has brought peace and prosperity with the price of soullessness.

Tribal societies often are reluctant to make the trade and stick with the tribe over "modernity".

If you happen to suffer from PTSD, depression or the many other maladies that the west suffers more than tribal societies do... you might also wonder how good a deal it is...

They cannot read... You gonna trust them? Also the civilization could be more flexible about lot of things. Just let people work if they can do a job with less education etc...

Well if you don't live in a tribe your lifespan is longer and thereofore you have time to figure out the problem.

There is nothing soulless about following some asshole war leader? Working on the field like serfs did? What is soulles about everyone being literate and being able to mass share art?

[Speaker to Animals]

You are headed for a tough time when the lights go out.

[Hwen Hoshino]

You are headed for a tough time when the lights go out.

What edge does your mentality give you exactly if there is an eklectricity crisis?

[BjornP]

They cannot read... You gonna trust them? Also the civilization could be more flexible about lot of things. Just let people work if they can do a job with less education etc...

Well if you don't live in a tribe your lifespan is longer and thereofore you have time to figure out the problem.

There is nothing soulless about following some asshole war leader? Working on the field like serfs did? What is soulles about everyone being literate and being able to mass share art?

You do realize that being part of a tribe isn't equal to being an iliterate warmongering barbarian, right? Or for that matter, that serfdom wasn't a feature in tribalistic societies, at all? An ethnic group having a sense of kinship with each other is a tribe. Doesn't mean it can't be civilized. Writing, education, science, government... none of it is anathema to tribal society.

Nor is civilization at all opposed to warmongering. In fact, the most warlike, brutal and savage behaviors known to man were commited by those we call civilized peoples who had their own writing systems and art: Assyrians, Sumerians, Egyptians, Phonecians, Greeks, Macedonians, Romans, Parthians, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Indians, Aztec, Inca, Maya... they all followed war leaders, and while not all may have been literate in all of those civilization, they did share art, and at least they had writing systems or some forms of specialized education system.

[DrYouth]

The answer isn't going back to the tribe...

The question is can we establish meaningful social roles in our western civilization that has taken the cult of individualism to these extremes.

Is it possible to roll this back or are we doomed to collapse back to the tribal level as the social fabric tears apart... I don't know the answer.

Tribalism is always there to fall back on... but this is hardly something to strive for.

We have worked hard to achieve this level of mass cooperation that we call western civ, it has brought us much prosperity and peace... there are many reasons not to rush back to tribalism... it has a checkered history to say the least.

[BjornP]

The answer isn't going back to the tribe...

The question is can we establish meaningful social roles in our western civilization that has taken the cult of individualism to these extremes.

Is it possible to roll this back or are we doomed to collapse back to the tribal level as the social fabric tears apart... I don't know the answer.

Tribalism is always there to fall back on... but this is hardly something to strive for.

We have worked hard for the progress of mass cooperation, it has brought us much prosperity and peace... there are many reasons not to rush back to tribalism... it has a checkered history to say the least.

Nonsense.

"Back to"? So, having an ethnicity, being part of a culture, that's something what... backwards, primitive? And rejecting that is... "progress"? I'm part of the tribe of Danes. Doesn't exclude me from wanting to mass cooperate with any other tribes/nations/ethnicities that exist in the world or the governments that represent them. Doesn't even exclude me from accepting into my tribe those want to become fellow, new tribesmen (provided they accept their new tribe's primacy), no matter where they originally come from.

It has been the desire for empire and universalism at gunpoint (and swordpoint) that has more lives on its conscience than the sense of loyalty to one's own tribe. That, and the desire by kings and nobility for land they claimed their family had a claim to.

You're in effect arguing that if a people, an ethnic group, is different from some other ethnic group, that in itself is civilizational "doom", that peoples being different from each other is "nothing to strive for". That loyalty to one's own group, precludes friendly assocation with those outside own's group. Are you more loyal to your own family, or that of some Canadian family you don't even know? Presumebly your own, correct? Does that mean you're likely to murder that other family when you're both reaching for the same, last pack of bananas down at the grocery store or are you - - capable of acting civilized to each despite feeling more loyalty to your own group than to the other's group? Amazing how that works, huh? Well, that's how it is for those of who don't actually see our ethnicities, our tribes and our sense of loyalty to it, as "backwards".

Your conclusions are built up of fallacies and ahistorical assumptions, DrY. Rethink them.

[nmoore63]

The question is can we establish meaningful social roles in our western civilization that has taken the cult of individualism to these extremes.

I don't get to heaven based on someone else's soul.

[Speaker to Animals]

The question is can we establish meaningful social roles in our western civilization that has taken the cult of individualism to these extremes.

I don't get to heaven based on someone else's soul.

Not strictly correct. It's a collective effort. Make no effort to also help your brother escape sin, and you turned your back on God.

Individualism is not really a Christian concept at all.