Another School Shooting

[DrYouth]

It doesn't seem to work the other way. Most of sub-Saharan Africa knows perfectly well how western civilization works but they can't just do it. We can tell them they need to encourage certain principles and values, rule of law, etc., but that doesn't mean they can actually do those things even if they want to. And they do want it. They just can't do it..

It takes many generations to break tribal bonds....
It took hundreds to thousands of years in the west - they were already weakened in the Roman Empire with the influx and Romanization of multiple cultures... and the Christian church carried this project forward through the dark ages.. to the enlightenment era.

It's not going to happen in a few decades in sub-Saharan Africa no matter how much they want it.
Tribal bonds create security and consistency... people are generally pretty loathe to give that up. They are reinforced by perceived injustices across tribal lines... these live a long time in the imagination... they are meant to.

[DBTrek]

If you read Tribe by Sebastian Junger you might be swayed into believing that the breaking of tribal bonds is actually responsible for a number of our modern-day social ills.

I was being demonized in another thread for suggesting that rewarding or caring for members of a community who are capable but refuse to contribute is actually harmful - and that we should let the capable contribute back or go it alone without social support.

That position comes straight from the Tribe book, where Junger points out that the rise in PTSD and veteran disability came at the same time we began making it harder for war veterans to reintegrate into our society. When we started treating them like victims of a war instead of soldiers from our community their mental health declined as their disability went up.

[Speaker to Animals]

That's the problem with the left, though. They put value judgments on all these things.

When it comes to tribalism and civilization, both have their merits and their detractions. Pointing out that Africans are inherently a tribal race doesn't mean they are somehow less than. There are advantages to that mode of social behavior, which is why they evolved that way in the first place.

In the end, it's a kind of racial superiority to assume that everything European is the best and therefore, if somebody claims that another race are not particularly inclined to western civilization, then it is tantamount to saying they are inferior.

Most of us think western civilization is the best because it is our civilization. Chinese think Chinese civilization is best. Even Africans, though they want the comforts and luxuries of western civilization, don't really want to live the life, else they would do so,

If you step back, there is nothing inherently "better" about living in a society like our own compared to living in the jungle as a hunter-gatherer. They each have advantages and disadvantages in certain contexts. If you want to break out and evolve into a space-fairing species, then sure, you need to go West. But does that necessarily make us happier? I doubt it. I suspect those people in the middle of the rain forest are a bit happier. Maybe I am wrong. Not sure. I know I would not be happy living like that, but I am evolved to living in western civilization.

[GloryofGreece]

I'm for sure mostly European (German/Welsh/French), but also have a significant amount of Native American in me (1/8th to be exact) , so does that mean I'm "evolved" to be "civilized"? I think I've been more accurately described as "trained" to be civilized than evolved, even without the native in me. I just feel like we are headed down a path of more alienation and more separation between humanity and nature. We think we can master it and control it but we really can't.

[SuburbanFarmer]

If you read Tribe by Sebastian Junger you might be swayed into believing that the breaking of tribal bonds is actually responsible for a number of our modern-day social ills.

I was being demonized in another thread for suggesting that rewarding or caring for members of a community who are capable but refuse to contribute is actually harmful - and that we should let the capable contribute back or go it alone without social support.

That position comes straight from the Tribe book, where Junger points out that the rise in PTSD and veteran disability came at the same time we began making it harder for war veterans to reintegrate into our society. When we started treating them like victims of a war instead of soldiers from our community their mental health declined as their disability went up.

That's a symptom of their lives being thrown away on meaningless adventures for profit. They are most certainly victims of the MIC and political machine.

[DrYouth]

Good discussion.

Interestingly I think we are on the same page.... at least DB, STA and GoG... not sure about G-cat... victim card IS part of the problem... not the solution.

So to sum up.
Leaving the tribe behind is what made the west the west... it has been done in other cultures to... but perhaps not to the same extent.
But leaving the tribe behind has it's price... it also what fuels the ills of the west.
This is what makes tribal societies so suspicious of the west's agenda... makes us seem like the Borg to them (star trek reference )
So western culture is a double edged sword. With incredible powers of assimilation and cooperation but also a deep void at it's core.
This meaning vacuum is what may ultimately become it's undoing... unless we figure out a way to return to some kind of balance.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Good discussion.

Interestingly I think we are on the same page.... at least DB, STA and GoG... not sure about G-cat... victim card IS part of the problem... not the solution.
.

Of course it is. I'm just saying that it's inevitable.

It's obvious to everyone that their suffering is meaningless, so what else can the rest of us see them as, other than victims or fools? You can't expect the populace to laud them as heroes, having served no purpose.

[DBTrek]

No, they aren’t victims of anything, GCF - until society treats them like victims. Junger goes on to describe an African warrior tribe known for engaging in brutal warfare, but also having cleansing rituals that reconcile the warriors back to the rest of tribal society after battles. Zero cases of PTSD.

Then, one day, the UN sets up operations with the tribe and starts giving their warriors disability and counseling for war trauma. Low and behold, a society that performed war since time immemorial suddenly saw a proliferation of disabled and traumatized vets who could not reintegrate with society. All that changed was they began to be rewarded for being victims, and society started treating them like they were.

So, as usual GCF, you’re wrong.

[SuburbanFarmer]

No, they aren’t victims of anything, GCF - until society treats them like victims. Junger goes on to describe an African warrior tribe that engages in brutal warfare, but also has cleansing rituals that reconcile the warriors back to the rest of tribal society after battles. Zero cases of PTSD.

Then, one day the UN sets up operations with the tribe and starts giving their warriors disability and counseling for war trauma. Low and behold, a society that performed war since time immemorial suddenly saw a proliferation of disabled and traumatized vets who could not reintegrate with society. All that changed was they began to be rewarded for being victims, and society started treating them like they were.

So, as usual GCF, you’re wrong.

One would assume that the tribe supported whatever conflicts they were sending the warriors into.

If their chieftan were starting fights, and getting people killed for no perceived benefit, one would expect those cleansing rituals to lose their enthusiasm and meaning.

I take your point, but you're missing mine.

[DBTrek]

Maybe I am missing your point. I don’t see how tribal chiefs starting unpopular wars matters though. What mattered was how society viewed their warriors, and what strategies they had for reintegrating them as functional members after a war.

Not seeing how the popularity of the war or who started it would impact those factors.