Fake News

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BjornP
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Re: Fake News

Post by BjornP » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:37 am

The "means of mass media" is not "journalism", StA. Media is not journalism. Media is media, journalism is journalism. It's what you do journalism on.

The people who managed to sway people with their ideas took over the nations. If that's the point you want answered, I agree that's a large part of how a new system gains power, sure. I agree that you'd use the press to popularize your new ideas for a new society. It was thanks to newspapers, or rather the demand for more liberties expressed in those newspapers that ended absolutism in my country. The society that followed was one that came to appreciate those liberties. Before that, mass media promulgated ideas that glorified absolutism as the most "natural" of states and the liberties we have now as "chaotic". Before the Enlightenment the people were nothing. There was no nation, there was only the state. The absolutist monarchies rejected the notion of the nation-state, because it implied that the state should be governed by the will of the nation, not by the King-that-is-State ideal of absolutism. The ideas to combat that old notion came from the printing press - just as the idea of absolutism, in its day, btw.

Not being a reactionary I am not sure what you see as so desirable about the pre-Enlightenment era. I'm too individualistic to subject myself to the aristocracy of old, too anti-authoritarian to bow to other than my queen. Her authority is one derived from respect of her and for the history she represents, not obedience to her. I am not a dog and want no dog's life.

You're not going to get a reactionary US society, at least not judging on the popularity of your more radical (heh...irony.. :P )views here. But if you want such a society, or a US society move in a more direction more in line with your views anyway, the way to do so would be to question the prevailing political reality using mass media, and having your own journalists reporting on the facts from your perspective within that mass media.

Now, of course, if the US became your ideal society, the US constitution would likely be scrapped given the ideals it's based on, so that would mean an end to any new attempts at independent journalism, and thus any (public) attempt at subverting your newly established order for an even newer one. Same if actual Marxists took power in the US. But if what you're really against is simply the notion that you have to compete, with your views against other, more pro-liberty, or more pro-democracy views and that that competition is unfair or destructive.... not that you'd want it anyway, but no sympathy from me on that account.

Democracy cannot accept its own disintegration, nor should it. That's Popper's tolerance paradox in action. You are an anti-democrat, and do not agree with the Enlightenment values you're country's founding fathers based your country's constitution on. Fair enough. If you want to go about dismantling all that, you have to still work the current capitalist system of getting private backers, work the market, get listeners or readers, and you have to provide a new perspective on the same news - or possibly go beyond what other journalists even bother looking for.

And after you've convinced everyone, the US will only get their news from the Most Exultant High Chronicler's daily show "You Love the Government and the Government Loves Your Precious Bodily Fluids". Best monopoly is State monopoly. ;)
Fame is not flattery. Respect is not agreement.

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Fake News

Post by Speaker to Animals » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:58 am

I read two paragraphs into that wall of text before I realized you never had any intention of actually responding to the content of my post.

Please respond to what people are actually arguing if you want them to read what you post and respond to your posts honestly in return.

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Fake News

Post by Speaker to Animals » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:11 am

nmoore63 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:12 am
Free press is inherently a good thing.
The freedom is, but the press itself is just a social/political weapon. There is nothing inherently good about journalism. That is what I actually posted.

The freedom to speak your mind and to publish your ideas is obviously inherently good.

But even there consider that the very people who control the press loathe your freedom to compete against them. They try to shut down your ability to dissent and even try to punish people they deem their political enemies.

The false myth that the press is synonymous with the freedom of speech is an odious lie. The freedom of speech makes the press possible, but the press tries their damndest to limit that freedom for anybody who is their political enemies.

PartyOf5
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Re: Fake News

Post by PartyOf5 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:29 am

I'll agree with Bjorn that Journalism is not media. Journalism in the MSM is dead. Totally, completely, dead. Journalism exists as a niche hobby now. Those that control the flow of information (Google, YT, Twitter, cable companies, media companies) will never let it become more than that. As long as the NPCs have their iPhones, Netflix, and first world lifestyle, that will not change.

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BjornP
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Re: Fake News

Post by BjornP » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:45 am

Speaker to Animals wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:58 am
I read two paragraphs into that wall of text before I realized you never had any intention of actually responding to the content of my post.

Please respond to what people are actually arguing if you want them to read what you post and respond to your posts honestly in return.
I responded to what I thought you meant and did my best to answer your point as I understood it, and adding my thoughts to it. Try and consider that maybe sometimes people don't always know what you mean, StA. Anyway, I think you've made your position more than clear by now.
Fame is not flattery. Respect is not agreement.

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Fake News

Post by Speaker to Animals » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:48 am

You know you did not. I am not engaging with nonsense. If you want to debate reaction, then create a separate thread. Nor am I interested in debating your definitions of terms. You know damned well what I was talking about. redefining words is sophistry.

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BjornP
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Re: Fake News

Post by BjornP » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:50 am

The thief thinks all men steal. Have a good night, StA.
Fame is not flattery. Respect is not agreement.

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Fake News

Post by Speaker to Animals » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:52 am

BjornP wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:50 am
The thief thinks all men steal. Have a good night, StA.
:lol:

good night, Bjorn. Sweet dreams. Dream of sophistry and rock candy mountain.

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DBTrek
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Re: Fake News

Post by DBTrek » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:11 pm

No one thought the Fake News thread would benefit from links to the biggest fake news story of 2019? Granted we’re only 22 days in to the new year, still, let’s not start things off by slacking:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/21/opin ... -life.html

https://www.thewrap.com/national-review ... dents/amp/

So it begins. Native American self-proclaimed veteran turns America against racist white students by lying, media amplifies the lies exponentially.

Not a new situation. Sadly an all too common one. But this time people had a video documenting the extent of the lies, so the media had to come clean. Wish it were integrity that stung them into honesty, but it wasn’t. It was 100% video footage documenting the extent of their lying that is getting these retractions published.
"Hey varmints, don't mess with a guy that's riding a buffalo"

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C-Mag
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Re: Fake News

Post by C-Mag » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:51 pm

Fake news is about making a first impression. Knowing most won't remember they were wrong.

Get your lies out first is the motto I'm sure.
PLATA O PLOMO


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