The Enlightenment - roll it back or forward?

[jediuser598]

If there exists no such thing as the spirit, how can the spiritual exist?

Who says there exists no such thing as the spirit?

Assume it hypothetically.

Can spirit be measured?

[Speaker to Animals]

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I said - perhaps you need to rephrase your posit.

You could say that our higher intellect is a product of evolution, in the same way as a spreadsheet is the product of electrons. It’s factually true in a sense, but it’s not the whole story.

If everything we are is simply evolution, then so is everything we do.

You really did not see the fallacy there?

[SuburbanFarmer]

Errgggg......php not doing well on iPhone -



I said - perhaps you need to rephrase your posit.

You could say that our higher intellect is a product of evolution, in the same way as a spreadsheet is the product of electrons. It’s factually true in a sense, but it’s not the whole story.

If everything we are is simply evolution, then so is everything we do.

You really did not see the fallacy there?

No. We’ve been outside of normal evolutionary processes for millennia, as I said. We have lent been under selective pressure, or even had to compete for resources for a very long time.

All of our development since then has been a result of our environment (to a small degree) and our own influence. We’ve been directing our own evolution since the first fire and farming efforts.

Again, the human brain wasn’t made in a day, but it’s matched by a number of other species. The difference is that we transcended the natural world.

[Okeefenokee]

^^^Complete stupidity.

If we weren't under pressure, we'd all be the same.

It's like ol' Dano said about Alexander. All them folks of his time, they'd have done the same as him, if they could'a.

[jediuser598]

You could say that our higher intellect is a product of evolution, in the same way as a spreadsheet is the product of electrons. It’s factually true in a sense, but it’s not the whole story.

If everything we are is simply evolution, then so is everything we do.

You really did not see the fallacy there?

No. We’ve been outside of normal evolutionary processes for millennia, as I said. We have lent been under selective pressure, or even had to compete for resources for a very long time.

All of our development since then has been a result of our environment (to a small degree) and our own influence. We’ve been directing our own evolution since the first fire and farming efforts.

Again, the human brain wasn’t made in a day, but it’s matched by a number of other species. The difference is that we transcended the natural world.

One could argue that you can't transcend the natural world, because the natural world is everything.

We think humans are special, because we've only seen one instance of something like humans. We've seen other species use tools, but none have used them to quite the same degree as us. All of this though, one could argue, is a result of evolution, of random chance. We are a result of evolution, our tools are a result of us, but that doesn't make us extra-ordinary. Sure at this small scale, you could say "well they're the only example of this type of behavior" but at a large enough scale, given them sheer probability, human beings can't be the only example of this type of advanced behavior, thus not very extraordinary at all.

[Okeefenokee]

You really did not see the fallacy there?

No. We’ve been outside of normal evolutionary processes for millennia, as I said. We have lent been under selective pressure, or even had to compete for resources for a very long time.

All of our development since then has been a result of our environment (to a small degree) and our own influence. We’ve been directing our own evolution since the first fire and farming efforts.

Again, the human brain wasn’t made in a day, but it’s matched by a number of other species. The difference is that we transcended the natural world.

One could argue that you can't transcend the natural world, because the natural world is everything.

We think humans are special, because we've only seen one instance of something like humans. We've seen other species use tools, but none have used them to quite the same degree as us. All of this though, one could argue, is a result of evolution, of random chance. We are a result of evolution, our tools are a result of us, but that doesn't make us extra-ordinary. Sure at this small scale, you could say "well they're the only example of this type of behavior" but at a large enough scale, given them sheer probability, human beings can't be the only example of this type of advanced behavior, thus not very extraordinary at all.

But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

[Okeefenokee]

So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold.

This is why the modern world is rotting.

You're treating this like it was something that happened to you, rather than something that you caused.

So would you rather live a short and violent life or a long and depressing one...

There's another option you're forgetting.

I see this a lot from folks like Hash and grumps. Hash is absolutely bound to the idea that everyone else is as bound to worldly things as he is. In Hash's mind, everyone who isn't as rich as him is miserable, and wishes they could be him. Note his ceaseless lamenting at what his worldly pursuits haven't earned him.

The returns on worshiping golden calves are slim.

[Hwen Hoshino]

People did not have the time to be depressed because thye had to work the fields 24/7. I take my chances now.

I agree...
I believe that we are better off in a postmodern world...
There are greater opportunities, there are broader horizons...

But there is also a far wider disparity of vision between those stuck at the lowest levels of moral emotional development and those at the highest...
And there is almost no recognition of this disparity, everyone is equal remember?

So there is nothing to be done, nothing to aspire to (other than materialism).... only massive frustration.... little community, and precious little to sustain soul and spirit.

Going backwards to the common ground of the past where we were in greater harmony with one another but lived short and violent lives is not my choice of path.... but the harmony side of things is appealing....

Violent life /=/ greater harmony.

[SuburbanFarmer]

You really did not see the fallacy there?

No. We’ve been outside of normal evolutionary processes for millennia, as I said. We have lent been under selective pressure, or even had to compete for resources for a very long time.

All of our development since then has been a result of our environment (to a small degree) and our own influence. We’ve been directing our own evolution since the first fire and farming efforts.

Again, the human brain wasn’t made in a day, but it’s matched by a number of other species. The difference is that we transcended the natural world.

One could argue that you can't transcend the natural world, because the natural world is everything.

We think humans are special, because we've only seen one instance of something like humans. We've seen other species use tools, but none have used them to quite the same degree as us. All of this though, one could argue, is a result of evolution, of random chance. We are a result of evolution, our tools are a result of us, but that doesn't make us extra-ordinary. Sure at this small scale, you could say "well they're the only example of this type of behavior" but at a large enough scale, given them sheer probability, human beings can't be the only example of this type of advanced behavior, thus not very extraordinary at all.

I certainly hope you’re right, and that we manage to contact someone else before it’s too late.

Sometimes, I think that’s the only way out of this trap that we’ve built

[Speaker to Animals]

You could say that our higher intellect is a product of evolution, in the same way as a spreadsheet is the product of electrons. It’s factually true in a sense, but it’s not the whole story.

If everything we are is simply evolution, then so is everything we do.

You really did not see the fallacy there?

No. We’ve been outside of normal evolutionary processes for millennia, as I said. We have lent been under selective pressure, or even had to compete for resources for a very long time.

All of our development since then has been a result of our environment (to a small degree) and our own influence. We’ve been directing our own evolution since the first fire and farming efforts.

Again, the human brain wasn’t made in a day, but it’s matched by a number of other species. The difference is that we transcended the natural world.

No, dude. It's totally fallacious.

A spreadsheet is a product of intelligent design. According to the materialist view, intelligence itself was the product of blind evolution. If humans were like spreadsheets, then somebody designed us.

As for the rest of this.. we are NOT outside of any normal evolutionary process right now. We still evolve even now. Nor are we directing it. We try, but we fuck that up every time.

No other species is able to fully reason. At least not on the this planet.

And you still did not address your earlier contradiction. If religion is just an evolutionary adaptation, but the subject of religion is necessarily false, then you cannot subsequently claim that evolution necessarily leads you to know the truth about anything. Maybe it does and maybe it does not. But if you claim it did not in at least the case of human religiosity, then you cannot then claim you necessarily know the truth about anything.