Economics: PayDay Loans- Bastards or Black Sheep?

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Like I said, I didn't bring it up.

I guess we can abandon the whole 'super vital tool for the poor to survive' argument in favor of payday lenders.

I can see you're certainly anxious to discard that argument.
Sadly, you've produced nothing to refute it, so it's going to hang around in spite of your negative feelers.

Maybe spend more time examining the argument instead of trying to discard it with your emotions.

My argument hasn't been addressed. At what point to we consider a person to be compelled?

I didn't introduce the concept of starvation, but I am happy to actually address it, and I am happy to discard it. It is all up to you guys to describe how vital payday lenders are to the lives of the poor.

Fact is, in all of these market ideologue arguments, every service is vital and needed for the consumer when it is convenient to argue that they are, and then they are, suddenly, not so vital or needed that we might need to regulate them so they aren't abused.

(Obligatory accusation of using emotions to taste. )

Same shit, different pile.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

A LESSON ON SPOTTING SOMEONE WHO HAS RUN OUT OF ARGUMENTS

What was said:

I’m not asking folks to praise, celebrate, or even like payday lenders. I’m just asking them to understand how and why the system works as it does before they decide to deprive their neighbors of an economic tool.

How people with no argument try to emotionalize what was said:

I guess we can abandon the whole 'super vital tool for the poor to survive' argument in favor of payday lenders.

The whole argument was that this is a vital economic tool for the poor, and it is borderline cruel, and certainly ignorant to deprive them of it by placing too many restrictions on the practice.

It's like the crazy-gene takes over and they just start losing it. The points are unassailable, so the only recourse left is to froth at the mouth and shriek misinterpretations of the argument at people.
/shrug

Do you ever notice that you don't actually argue against any of the points? You just accuse anyone who disagrees with you of being crazy and emotional.

It is a good trick, i'll admit. Forces people to defend their motivations for reasoning, and you never have to actually argue anything beyond your initial position.

[DBTrek]

You just responded to my observation about your utter lack of counterpoints with:

My argument hasn't been addressed. At what point to we consider a person to be compelled?

Asking me a question isn't a counterpoint.

You mischaracterize, moan, and muddy the water with questions, but you never get around to making an actual counterargument.
And you still haven't.
/shrug

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

You just responded to my observation about your utter lack of counterpoints with:

My argument hasn't been addressed. At what point to we consider a person to be compelled?

Asking me a question isn't a counterpoint.

You mischaracterize, moan, and muddy the water with questions, but you never get around to making an actual counterargument.
And you still haven't.
/shrug

My argument is that if we can consider payday loans a tool to keep the poor from starving or having their power shut off (two conditions I didn't bring up myself, I might add), then we can make the case that they aren't 'freely' entering the contract.

Additionally, if we aren't arguing that they are a vital tool, whence all the concern that the people of Oregon would seek to limit the practice?

[Okeefenokee]

Personal accountability is LITERALLY slavery, the thread.

/shrug.

[DBTrek]

My argument is that if we can consider payday loans a tool to keep the poor from starving or having their power shut off, then we can make the case that they aren't 'freely' entering the contract.

Additionally, if we aren't arguing that they are a vital tool, whence all the concern that the people of Oregon would seek to limit the practice?

It's not a monopoly tool, is it? The vast majority of us (including the low income) all pay bills and buy food without taking out a payday loan. So I'd ask under what circumstance is a payday loan the only choice? It's a choice. At least, until the know-betters decide that it shouldn't be a choice for anyone else because they disagree with the practice for whatever reason.

Since it's not the only choice to get food or pay a bill (though it may be the only choice for some to meet these ends through obtaining a loan), it can hardly coerce anyone to do anything, can it? Coercion requires a lack of alternatives in the face of danger and/or a threat of harm, and payday loans represent neither.

The "concern" over Oregon limiting the practice is simply an observation. People make a political choice to shut these institutions down, I suspect this is based on the very emotional reactions we've seen to the issue here, and they thereby deprive others of access to this economic tool. Did they achieve whatever goal they envisioned by doing so? Have the poor somehow been uplifted by having one less choice in their life of limited choices?

That's a question for them to answer, I guess. Though again, I suspect the emotional do-gooders simply carry on in smug satisfaction without asking themselves what their legislation actually achieved vs. what they think they've achieved.

[K@th]

Their customers choose to pay the high interest rather than lose power for a week. I'd choose losing power, personally, but that's just me.

Unless the re-connection fee is more than the interest on the payday loan.

[K@th]

My argument is that if we can consider payday loans a tool to keep the poor from starving or having their power shut off (two conditions I didn't bring up myself, I might add), then we can make the case that they aren't 'freely' entering the contract.

You can live without power - ask the people who survived a hurricane or tornado. Check with a Puerto Rican.

I could have easily lived on Ramen noodles for three days. I chose not to. I got a quick $100, paid it back in 4 days - it was probably $120 or so. Easy decision. I paid $20 so I didn't have to eat Ramen for three days. (Or something like that.)

No deaths; just a choice I made freely, knowing damn well I was paying a price.

[DBTrek]

Personal accountability is LITERALLY slavery, the thread.

/shrug.

Might be my favorite quote of yours.





Wait . . . wait . . . hold up . . . HM and Penner just arrived. Let me
take that back. They're legislating some choices away to protect you
from making bad decisions. Be sure to thank them.

[K@th]

Most places usually want the loan AND interest paid off within two weeks. That is a recipe for disaster for a lot of people since they usually go to these places because it's a last resort.

They should not take the loan if they can't pay it back. They should eat Ramen for a week or live without the electric. We all make choices.