Europe, Boring Until it's Not

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BjornP
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Re: Europe Boring Until it's Not

Post by BjornP » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:07 pm

Alexander PhiAlipson wrote:A dude was shot and killed down by the train station this weekend; an asteroid could destroy the world--which was the existential threat for that poor undocumented alien?
You are moving the goalpost. We are discussing existential threat the US nation. A wet bathroom floor is also a potential existential threat to an individual under the right circumctances. Plus, you are probably more like to slip in on a wet floor than die in a terrorist attack, Flip.

Are you going to suggest allying yourself with Russia against the "greater" existential threat of wet bathroom floors...?
Fame is not flattery. Respect is not agreement.

Okeefenokee
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Re: Europe Boring Until it's Not

Post by Okeefenokee » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:29 pm

Fife wrote:I heard the Russians were only about 2 weeks away from weaponizing Y2K in late December 1999. Thank Providence Bill was there to slow them down just enough.
I heard they don't wash their hands after they go number 2.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Europe Boring Until it's Not

Post by Speaker to Animals » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:32 pm

Is it just a peculiarity of this forum, or does it seem like every minor nation is desperate for America and Russia to become enemies again?

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ssu
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Re: Europe Boring Until it's Not

Post by ssu » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:37 pm

StCapps wrote:The most likely scenario that brings about a US-Russian alliance though is the Russian establishment is overthrown by a regime that doesn't require an American boogeyman to justify their existence. That's best case scenario for America and would allow for a more long lasting alliance than any of the other scenarios presented. As long as both countries are major nuclear powers, I don't see any theoretical alliance within that framework lasting very long.
First and foremost, far better strategy would be to put normal relations and normalizing the relations to be the first objective. That would be a major accomplishment itself. Would be something that I would want to happen, really.

Even that would happen only after some time, yet only after that could one start talking about an alliance. Most important starting point: The US should acknowledge the Russia is one of the Great Powers and hence not just your average Georgia lying between Europe and Asia. To start talking about an alliance NOW is just daydreaming, which raises questions of how much does the person purposing it understand the current situation and what is his or her judgement. Perhaps start that alliance-building starting from different sectors: cooperation in fighting terrorism, the US to get it's allies and the EU to engage with Russia also step-by-step. A serious effort to change views and perceptions. Heck, a joint manned mission to Mars could be a start.

And of course, the new Russian leadership should see the engagement with the West as something important, something better than just going it's own way and hugging China.

Yet there are two Basic structural problems here:

The first problem I see is that we (the West in general) are just too arrogant easily get distracted. If Putin would be ousted, many would just sigh in relief, but simply not care about Russia anymore. They would simply forget the country. And there simply wouldn't trust the new leadership to be there allways. They would fear the "Putinists" taking over again. It would be a slow process, but something possible.

Something equivalent of someone purposing an US-Iranian alliance...which indeed was the case earlier.

Think about it how difficult it would be to normalize relations with Iran. As the US follows in it's Mid-East policy obiediently Israel, the only way for that to happen would be that Israel and Iran would want to normalize their relations. The above example shows the other difficulty: The US usually doesn't give a fuck about what objectives and agenda of other countries are. It just looks at issues from it's own viewpoint and basically just assumes that what is important for itself has to be important for other countries too.

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Re: Europe Boring Until it's Not

Post by Okeefenokee » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:45 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:Is it just a peculiarity of this forum, or does it seem like every minor nation is desperate for America and Russia to become enemies again?
yup.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.

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StCapps
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Re: Europe Boring Until it's Not

Post by StCapps » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:46 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:Is it just a peculiarity of this forum, or does it seem like every minor nation is desperate for America and Russia to become enemies again?
You being enemies is not of benefit to us in Canada. You being enemies increases the chances we get nuked, I simply don't go around thinking that just because I wish you two could be friends that this is likely to happen anytime soon. I'm a realist about the situation, you are ignoring the nukes to focus on a far more poorly armed and organized boogeyman of the week. The Balance of Terror has far more geopolitical ramifications than Radical Islam running amok, that is the current situation, and until the situation changes treating Radical Islamic terrorism like a bigger threat to America than Russia makes no sense.
Last edited by StCapps on Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
*yip*

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ssu
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Re: Europe Boring Until it's Not

Post by ssu » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:Is it just a peculiarity of this forum, or does it seem like every minor nation is desperate for America and Russia to become enemies again?
Nobody wants that.

Just start from the reality there is. Not like, "Hey, wouldn't it be great for Russia to be our ally, because the evil Muslims are out there to get us?" with absolutely no care about what the objectives of Russia and what the present situation is. That's plain stupid, if you don't think about how the Russians see you in the first place.

And just to remind you, my puny country has far better relations to Russia than you do. Yet naturally that doesn't mean we would be so naive to think war could come. Like, uh, the Ukrainians thought of their situation and let their armed forces totally collapse.
Last edited by ssu on Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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StCapps
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Re: Europe Boring Until it's Not

Post by StCapps » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:55 pm

ssu wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:Is it just a peculiarity of this forum, or does it seem like every minor nation is desperate for America and Russia to become enemies again?
Nobody wants that.

Just start from the reality there is. Not like, "Hey, wouldn't it be great for Russia to be our ally, because the evil Muslims are out there to get us?" with absolutely no care about what the objectives of Russia and what the present situation is.
It would be nice if Russian establishment wanted to be a US ally, but they don't and won't unless the situation changes drastically. The chances of the situation changing drastically in a way that leads to a US-Russian alliance anytime soon are not very likely at all. Just because I wish the situation were different does not make it so.
Last edited by StCapps on Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
*yip*

Okeefenokee
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Re: Europe Boring Until it's Not

Post by Okeefenokee » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:56 pm

StCapps wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:Is it just a peculiarity of this forum, or does it seem like every minor nation is desperate for America and Russia to become enemies again?
You being enemies is not of benefit to us in Canada. You being enemies increases the chances we get nuked, I simply don't go around thinking that just because I wish you two could be friends that this is likely to happen anytime soon. I'm a realist about the situation, you are ignoring the nukes to focus on a far more poorly armed and organized boogeyman of the week.
Except there is no serious issue between us other than Europe, which many of us are done with being involved with. If they don't want to defend themselves, let Russia have them. Defending Europe has done nothing for us since the wall came down. With Russia doing nothing in our hemisphere in decades, we have no further reason to foot the bill for the defense of Europe while they do nothing other than denigrate the US.

Bye Europe. Defend yourselves.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.

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StCapps
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Re: Europe Boring Until it's Not

Post by StCapps » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:57 pm

Okeefenokee wrote:
StCapps wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:Is it just a peculiarity of this forum, or does it seem like every minor nation is desperate for America and Russia to become enemies again?
You being enemies is not of benefit to us in Canada. You being enemies increases the chances we get nuked, I simply don't go around thinking that just because I wish you two could be friends that this is likely to happen anytime soon. I'm a realist about the situation, you are ignoring the nukes to focus on a far more poorly armed and organized boogeyman of the week.
Except there is no serious issue between us other than Europe, which many of us are done with being involved with. If they don't want to defend themselves, let Russia have them. Defending Europe has done nothing for us since the wall came down. With Russia doing nothing in our hemisphere in decades, we have no further reason to foot the bill for the defense of Europe while they do nothing other than denigrate the US.

Bye Europe. Defend yourselves.
The issue isn't Europe, the issue is nukes. The Russian will still be scared you'll nuke them even if you left Europe entirely, because you still could, so what difference would that make?
Last edited by StCapps on Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
*yip*