Earth matters

[Montegriffo]

Also, there are flaws with the IUCN, although they're one of the better conservation monitoring groups.

Anything coming from WWF or Greenpeace can be thrown straight in the trash.

So are you saying giraffes are not in danger or are you still upset with what they say about whaling?

[Otern]

Also, there are flaws with the IUCN, although they're one of the better conservation monitoring groups.

Anything coming from WWF or Greenpeace can be thrown straight in the trash.

So are you saying giraffes are not in danger or are you still upset with what they say about whaling?

Giraffes aren't endangered (yet). But they are in position to be endangered in the future.

And no, it's not even about whaling, although Greenpeace is total bonkers on that issue, treating every whale the same, the truly endangered whales, and the least concern whales.

WWF takes the whole endangered thing a step further, by saying a specie can be endangered, if there's a chance of them disappearing from a country. Even though they're a pest of least concern in another country. For example, if a red fox enters New Zealand, WWF will treat the red fox as an endangered species, if the New Zealanders tries to kill them. Even though there's plenty of red foxes around the world, and absolutely no risk of them going extinct.

At least the IUCN TRIES to be somewhat scientific in their work, although they have a urban western bias. (Notice how they care so much about the lion, compared to the lynx?)

Clueless environmentalists are just as big of a threat to species conservation as big oil companies. I see this in my country too. "Environmentalists" tries to introduce "cool" invasive species, that are not globally threatened, or even near threatened, while those invasive species are a true threat to other less cool species that are already being listed as endangered. Most of these truly endangered species are plants, bugs, or other animals there won't be any Disney movie about though, so self professed "Greens" will always ignore these species.

I truly want a more green approach to politics. But most of the green organizations are clueless, run by pie in the sky idealism, and have absolutely no knowledge about the stuff they're trying to change. And their "solutions" are so far removed from reality, the pushback against them will always be larger than whatever they manage to achieve.

[Montegriffo]

Unfortunately most political movements are clueless and prone to exaggeration for effect.
I would say that anyone introducing a non indigenous species into a country is not an environmentalist.
We have a muntjack and Chinese water deer populations gone mad over here. I see one or the other of them most nights I drive off the farm. I am happy and even proactive in getting them shot so we can reduce the damage to trees and other native deer species. As for the genocide of our lovely red squirrels by the imported American greys don't get me started on that, I've not seen a red in the wild for about 40 years. We had one of the last footholds of them in the local Thetford forest but even there they have disappeared now.
I don't think it is helpful to label environmentalists as bonkers or clueless any more than it is to call Trump supporters dumb and racist.

[Otern]

WWF and Greenpeace are the bonkers ones. And everyone following them. IUCN are just deeply flawed, they have a lot of decent scientists, but also a lot of flawed political bullshit. I trust the IUCN, but with a caveat.

Nothing wrong about being an environmentalist. But trusting WWF and Greenpeace, is like following Stalin because you believe in worker's rights. Of course, "no true scotsman", and all that.

Just look at their track record of awful, awful decisions. Calling for a ban on trophy hunting. One of the few practices that would give a local population an incentive to keep large predators around. (re)introducing species into habitats where they're posing a threat to even more threatened species. Then there's the whole cultural landscape thing. They realize the cultural landscape is necessary for the survival of a lot of species, but at the same time, they do their best to destroy it, by totally wrecking the traditional/modern hybrid agriculture in Norway and Switzerland, telling everyone they should abandon all modern implements in traditional agriculture, turning it into a meaningless niche, and making factory farming replace the productivity losses related to it.

And the whole "organic revolution" debacle. Fucking hell.

But really, WWF and Greenpeace is a suicide cult.

[Montegriffo]

I support the way Greenpeace follow the Japanese whaling fleets around the open seas shaming them for their selfish practises. Call them SJW's if you must but that has no currency with me.

[Otern]

I support the way Greenpeace follow the Japanese whaling fleets around the open seas shaming them for their selfish practises. Call them SJW's if you must but that has no currency with me.

Do shaming the Jap lead to a stop in whaling of endangered whales? No, it's really useless. In fact, it was this exact shaming that lead to the Japanese turning to "research" whaling, instead of the commercial whaling of non endangered whales, like Norway and Iceland do.

When Japan got pressured into signing the ban on commercial whaling agreement, they no longer had an option to continue in a sustainable commercial way, but they still had a whaling culture, and a hunger for whale meat, so they used the research loophole. Also, no better way for a Jap to say "fuck you hippies", than to eat a whale, even if he dislikes the taste. Greenpeace turned the eating of whale from a protein source for the lower classes to an act of defiance to foreign cultural intervention. People used to reluctantly eat whale because they had to, to eating it out of spite. It doesn't really taste that good.

A better deal would've been to ignore them, or just lobby for sustainable whaling. And then Japanese whaling would look a lot more like the Norwegian and Icelandic whaling. A small scale, sustainable operation. (Most of the Japanese whaling is sustainable though, they mainly hunt minke whales. And this is not a problem, unless you want to go the PETA route, and give whales human rights.)


The Japanese whaling issue is in fact the perfect example of what I'm talking about. You don't save endangered whales by supporting Greenpeace, in fact, they're more in danger because of them, since they view every species of whale the same.

Then there's the whole seal ban they managed to push on the EU. Makes no sense from a non-PETA standpoint.

[Cid]

Dude greenpeace is just trying to build a wall in the ocean to save their white whales.

What I'm saying is everyone deserves to feel entitled to their stupid crusade and I'm only saying "deserves" because I know that's how they feel. Since feelings matter more than facts I'm not going to shit on some fat triple chinned nutter in the middle of nowhere in a mobile home.

Well, shit on them more than just giving an accurate description.

[Montegriffo]

Dude greenpeace is just trying to build a wall in the ocean to save their white whales.

What I'm saying is everyone deserves to feel entitled to their stupid crusade and I'm only saying "deserves" because I know that's how they feel. Since feelings matter more than facts I'm not going to shit on some fat triple chinned nutter in the middle of nowhere in a mobile home.

Well, shit on them more than just giving an accurate description.

Now that's not nice Cid.
I will admit to being an extremist when it comes to the Oceans, I would push for a moratorium on all commercial fishing of any kind until we work out the best way to protect the seas. They are more important to human life than most people understand right down to the smallest CO2 trapping organisms.

[Cid]

No one is an extremist on the oceans because if we were we'd reduce 99 percent of all the plastic we individually use. I'm not, you're not and unless a person live in the center of a major continent their trash will make its way out to fuck with shamu or shamu's afternoon snack.

[SuburbanFarmer]

No one is an extremist on the oceans because if we were we'd reduce 99 percent of all the plastic we individually use. I'm not, you're not and unless a person live in the center of a major continent their trash will make its way out to fuck with shamu or shamu's afternoon snack.

Or we could, you know, push to stop disposing of trash in the oceans. Most people aren't aware of this (not an accident):
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencen ... story.html

That shit didn't just roll down the beach into the water.