Norway says no to NATO missile shield

[Otern]

Y'all got the balance wrong Norway.

Russia ain't going to attack Norway because you got American BMD, and pissing the Americans off by not getting American BMD is much more likely to cause Russia to attack. Neutral Norway is a sign of weakness to the Russians, that could actually provoke an attack, siding with the US, not so much. Russia preys on soft targets, they don't attack hard targets, and your strategy is to be a softer target and piss off the ally who is the only one actually deterring the Russians, derp.

First of all, we're not neutral. We're in NATO, the general secretary of NATO is a Norwegian former prime minister. We're absolutely in it for the long run.

And not going too far with NATO is what we did during the Cold War too, with the purpose of not pushing the Soviet Union into a corner where they had to respond in force. The US has done similar things, like abandoning Project Pluto, joining the ABM-treaty and INF-treaty. Because no one wants a nuclear war.

Not being part of the NATO missile defense doesn't make us any more a softer target, as the missile defense can't do shit in Norway anyway. It just means we can spend more on defense that is actually able to resist an invasion, rather than relying on NATO dropping nukes on Russia when the Russians try to exploit grey areas.

There's a history of Russian neighbors who can't manage this balance; Georgia and Ukraine. When Georgia went too far with NATO cooperation, Russia invaded, knowing NATO wouldn't go to open war with Russia. Same with Ukraine. Neighboring countries to Russia can absolutely align themselves with NATO, or be part of NATO, like Norway. But they have to be extremely careful while doing so, and threatening Russian strategic deterrence will force their hand to react accordingly. And Russia will respond in a way where NATO have a way out of going to total nuclear war.

Norway joining the ballistic missile shield could lead to Russian annexation of Svalbard. They're already there, and it would be easy for them to send little green men and take it all over, hoping the US wouldn't respond. Or they could've ramped up sabotage of Norwegian infrastructure, while maintaining deniability. There's nothing stopping them from destroying most of Norwegian energy production, without actually sending troops in. And NATO is not going to war with Russia over some hydroplants falling apart for some mysterious reason.

The American high command is actually not that pissed off, for another reason; the NATO missile defense is purely political. It actually can't defend the US against a large scale exchange of nuclear weapons. The ones truly pissed off are Raytheon and Boeing, as they're the ones making money on a flawed concept. The US still have access to Norwegian airbases, intelligence services, and radars for observing Russian missile tests. These aspects are far more important than the useless umbrella that is only good for making the public THINK they're safe from nuclear weapons.

[StCapps]

Pissing off the Americans makes you a softer target. Norway does not have the ability to stop the Russians, you are entirely reliant on the Americans. No amount of money saved on not buying American BMD is going to make any difference whatsoever if the Americans aren't around to protect you. Keeping the Americans on board is Norway's top priority, but y'all have Trump Derangement Syndrome so you'd rather shoot yourselves in the foot than give Trump what he wants, under the delusion that you can fend for yourselves and skimp on NATO commitments. Keep slapping America in the face for no real benefit, with your Free Rider Faggotry and see how far that gets you, Clown Show Norway.

Norway didn't go too pro-NATO during the Cold War, helping to force the Soviets to spend like drunken sailors to keep up with America lead to their collapse, and Norway didn't get attacked. That's how you deter Russia dumbass, not playing this retarded "knife's edge" game that just alienates the very ally keeping you from being attacked, and showing the Russian's how weak you really are.

Burn in a grease fire you fucking undercover Russian sympathizing loons. That'll teach you turn your back on America for no good reason.

[TheReal_ND]

If a NATO country is invaded, we will send troops, as we've done every time NATO asked for something. But missile shield is just a step too far, for absolutely no benefit to Norway. The American presence in Norway is probably more to the benefit of the US, than it is to Norway nowadays, but at least it has some benefit to Norway.

Fuck you Eskimo bitch. We'll put our satellite bases wherever the fuck we want. Trump declared Space War nigger we are going to the stars to eradicate xenos. You are either in or you aren't. I swear to fuck these moolies over here

[Smitty-48]

That said, I think it's fair if Norway wants to cut themselves out to leave them to their own devices.

But that's not what Norway is saying, they're not pulling out of NATO, they're not going it alone, it's just a big fuck you America, while they're still expecting America to send the Marines and secure the seas for them.

Not really. Most norwegians don't want permanent american bases in Norway. A Russian land invasion from the North is not a realistic prospect since the fall of the Soviet Union. Worst case scenario now, is the Russkies going for an amphibious assault near Trondheim, cutting off the North, and doing their best to hold the ground until NATO push them back. And NATO will want to push them back, since a Russian controlled Norway would be way worse for NATO than Norway not joining the fucking useless missile defense program anyway. Even if we weren't part of NATO, NATO would push the Russians back, just as they'd do it for Sweden.

The Nordic countries are pretty much a buffer between NATO and Russia anyway, and it's in both NATO and Russia's interests that neither side controls that buffer too much. It's why Sweden and Finland stay out of NATO, and why Norway have had a pretty restricted policy on what kind of maneuvers and bases to allow in its country.

If a NATO country is invaded, we will send troops, as we've done every time NATO asked for something. But missile shield is just a step too far, for absolutely no benefit to Norway. The American presence in Norway is probably more to the benefit of the US, than it is to Norway nowadays, but at least it has some benefit to Norway.

The real Russian threat to Norway, is Svalbard. But Svalbard is safe as long as we abide by the Svalbard treaty, and don't allow militarization of Svalbard. Russia has no reason to go for Svalbard, as long as it remains demilitarized. And the US and Norway has no reason to militarize Svalbard, as long as there's no reason for Russia to go for Svalbard.

If Svalbard was annexed by Russia, it would be bad for Norway, but even worse for the US and Russia. The US can't allow Russia to get total control over the North pole, and would have to respond. While Russia wouldn't be able to deal with that response with conventional forces.

Fuck you. America creates that entire environment, without America, the Russians would fuck your shit up.

[Otern]

Fuck you. America creates that entire environment, without America, the Russians would fuck your shit up.

Sweden and Finland manage just fine without NATO. Although Finland were in a much more vulnerable position during the Cold War, and had to thread the line even more carefully than Norway ever had to, they're doing fine. Russia is not going to annex them, but they still have to deal with the threat from Russia constantly.

I'm very pro NATO, but NATO has to act like Cold War NATO, and not the expansionist post cold war NATO they do today to maintain support, not just in Norway, but among many other NATO members. It's supposed to be a defense union against totalitarianism, not an advocacy union of "freedom". Kosovo was a mistake. The bombing of Yugoslavia was a mistake. But I support Norwegian support in this, because NATO is still the best defense union we could hope for, and it's too late to pull out after 2007 anyway.

Do I think we need NATO? Sure. But the US has a greater need for Norway to stay in NATO, than Norway do. And it's not because our armed forces are great, or that we contribute enough in defense spending. But the geography is damn important to NATO. The Globus II radar, airbases and naval facilities are great assets to the US. Same thing goes for Denmark, with the Thule base in Greenland.

I don't want Norway to be in the position Finland were in during the Cold War. And in NATO, there's really no risk of being so from the Russians, but as NATO strays from its former course as a defense union, we're starting to become to the US, what Finland tried to avoid becoming to the Soviets during the cold war. I would expect Americans to understand that Norwegians don't want to become subjects of any foreign power, no matter how powerful, and even if they're our allies. But I also get that this is something a subject of the British queen could never understand.

[Smitty-48]

Fuck you. America creates that entire environment, without America, the Russians would fuck your shit up.

Sweden and Finland manage just fine without NATO. Although Finland were in a much more vulnerable position during the Cold War, and had to thread the line even more carefully than Norway ever had to, they're doing fine. Russia is not going to annex them, but they still have to deal with the threat from Russia constantly.

I'm very pro NATO, but NATO has to act like Cold War NATO, and not the expansionist post cold war NATO they do today to maintain support, not just in Norway, but among many other NATO members. It's supposed to be a defense union against totalitarianism, not an advocacy union of "freedom". Kosovo was a mistake. The bombing of Yugoslavia was a mistake. But I support Norwegian support in this, because NATO is still the best defense union we could hope for, and it's too late to pull out after 2007 anyway.

Do I think we need NATO? Sure. But the US has a greater need for Norway to stay in NATO, than Norway do. And it's not because our armed forces are great, or that we contribute enough in defense spending. But the geography is damn important to NATO. The Globus II radar, airbases and naval facilities are great assets to the US. Same thing goes for Denmark, with the Thule base in Greenland.

I don't want Norway to be in the position Finland were in during the Cold War. And in NATO, there's really no risk of being so from the Russians, but as NATO strays from its former course as a defense union, we're starting to become to the US, what Finland tried to avoid becoming to the Soviets during the cold war. I would expect Americans to understand that Norwegians don't want to become subjects of any foreign power, no matter how powerful, and even if they're our allies. But I also get that this is something a subject of the British queen could never understand.

No need for a wall of text, pretty sure I said that you can burn in Hell for all I care, Norway. /shrugs

[Smitty-48]

You are either in or you aren't. I swear to fuck these moolies over here

Indeed. George W. Bush doctrine; you're either wit us or agin us, there is no middle ground, that's no man's land.

[Smitty-48]

At the end of the day, Mutually Assured Destruction is just utopian nonsense cooked up by the Democrats.

The best way to deter a nuclear war, is full spectrum dominance.

Eagle with thunderbolts in talons grasped, for counterforce option as necessary.

Dick Cheney was right, won't be long before there are dozens of nuclear powers all with ICBMs

The bipolar Balance of Terror is obsolete, deterring Russia is no longer sufficient.

No foreign giant shall ever drink a drop from the Mississippi, nor will any of these rogue states neither.

The Empire of Liberty shall hold the entire world at risk, charge the ramparts of freedom at your own peril.

If America goes, everybody goes, there's no escape, Norway.