HH60 - The Celtic Holocaust

[TheReal_ND]

lol

[doc_loliday]

I'm a couple hours in, and it's really good.

[Ex-California]

I'm only about 40 minutes in, but Dan confirmed something that I've been thinking about since I've been listening to Bollelli's episodes on Crazy Horse and Little Bighorn and especially the current one on the Conquest of Mexico. I look at the whites that defeated the Indians as evil yet I look at Caesar as a hero, despite him committing the same atrocities.

Is this just bias in the sources I've been reading all of my life? Or do we forgive Caesar because of everything else he did before and after the Gallic Wars? I guess if Cortes had gone home to Spain and defeated the monarchy while installing a stronger, more stable form of government we'd have a different view of him as well. Maybe it all comes down to the original source, maybe we'd have a different view of Cortes if he wrong something like Caesar's commentaries

[Speaker to Animals]

I'm only about 40 minutes in, but Dan confirmed something that I've been thinking about since I've been listening to Bollelli's episodes on Crazy Horse and Little Bighorn and especially the current one on the Conquest of Mexico. I look at the whites that defeated the Indians as evil yet I look at Caesar as a hero, despite him committing the same atrocities.

Is this just bias in the sources I've been reading all of my life? Or do we forgive Caesar because of everything else he did before and after the Gallic Wars? I guess if Cortes had gone home to Spain and defeated the monarchy while installing a stronger, more stable form of government we'd have a different view of him as well. Maybe it all comes down to the original source, maybe we'd have a different view of Cortes if he wrong something like Caesar's commentaries

I believe so. Kids weren't taught that nonsense before the 1970s or thereabouts. It's a product of the long march of marxism through the institutions, including the universities and government schools.

In particular, Cortez didn't do anything the indiginous civilizations didn't do and wouldn't have done to us if they had the opportunity. Also, the other nations joined him against the Aztecs. But the kicker is that the Aztecs now control the whole thing, so it's not like the Spanish did themselves or anybody else a favor. Zapotec and others are now ruled over by Mexico, which is a nation state extension of Aztec civilization. They speak Spanish now and they worship the real God, but they are still the same people. The name Mexico is the Spanish derivative of the name the Aztecs called themselves (Mexica).

In the Andean region, the full-indigenous population in many parts is now higher than it ever was prior to contact and conquest. Boliva is now run by the indigenous population. In Peru, the average Peruvian is not really all that far removed from the various civilizations that lived there prior to contact either.

The paradigm we were taught, in my opinion, is totally false.

[DBTrek]

Wait . . . we're teaching folks to shed tears over the human-sacrificing Aztecs now?
The hell?

Cortes didn't recruit a boatload of tribal allies because the Aztecs we're nice guys just minding their own business and peacefully going their way.

[Speaker to Animals]

Wait . . . we're teaching folks to shed tears over the human-sacrificing Aztecs now?
The hell?

Cortes didn't recruit a boatload of tribal allies because the Aztecs we're nice guys just minding their own business and peacefully going their way.

All the Mesoamericans did it by the time the Spanish came. There are remains of earlier civilizations that don't seem to subscribe to the idea. I can't remember what the archaeologists call them offhand.

[DBTrek]

Those poor, poor, human-sacrificing, rolling a corpse down the temple steps, daily murdering, blood cultist, Aztecs. How DARE the Spanish destroy such a bountiful culture that brought the world incredible things like Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

I can see why there would be a lot of guilt over that.

[Speaker to Animals]

Those poor, poor, human-sacrificing, rolling a corpse down the temple steps, daily murdering, blood cultist, Aztecs. How DARE the Spanish destroy such a bountiful culture that brought the world incredible things like Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

I can see why there would be a lot of guilt over that.

I find Mesoamerican civilizations really interesting, though. Their human sacrificing was frightening, and I wouldn't want to be there to see it, but to be fair to the marxists' side of the argument, European peoples are fucking brutal as fuck too. When Mesoamericans went to war, they'd usually just try to wound as many of the other guys as they could to drag them back for sacrifice. They wouldn't try to exterminate their enemies. That's our game. Maybe put the Mesoamerican sacrifices into context with the stuff that VDH talks about in Carnage and Culture.

That's not to say we are evil and they are good. Just that we are different peoples, and Europeans peoples are brutal in our own ways.

[DBTrek]

The Mesoamerican civilizations are interesting, I just think a little bit of Devil's advocacy is in order. When colonial European history is taught as "Then the terrible white people did THIS to the poor, innocent others, and then the terrible white people did ANOTHER THING, to the poor, innocent, others, and then the terrible white people . . ."

There comes a time when it's probably healthy to say "Wait a sec. Before we press forward with the next chapter of how Europeans are the scourge of existence, can we examine those cultures they 'wiped out' a little more closely? I mean, it seems a little odd that the world was populated by villages of harmless utopian saints before the Europeans started colonizing. Isn't it possible that the people European's victimized were also . . . people who may have victimized others?"

[Ex-California]

Bollelli is by no means taking the postmodernist Marxist tact of demonizing the Spanish while absolving the Aztecs; he says from the outset his series is just like the one Dan made in the beginning of Ghosts of the Ostfront. It is a story of bad guys vs bad guys, and that fits my view of everything.

Still doesn't change the fact that I look at Caesar as the Best Guy even though he killed 1/3 or Gaul and enslaved another 1/3